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Post by hissoriyoujinbou on Dec 28, 2012 17:57:08 GMT
Hi Guys,
I know 1055 Carbon Steel is not the best type of steel used for making katana, but I'm a first time sword buyer on a budget. I made sure the blade is double pegged, and differentially tempered. Is there anything else I should look at specifically beforehand? Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere in the forum before. Kinda needed a quick answer.
Thanks in advance.
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Post by Rafael on Dec 28, 2012 19:50:12 GMT
If differentially hardened, you don't want the temper line (hamon) to run very close or all the way to the edge of the blade.
It would probably be helpful to post some pictures or a link to the item you're thinking about buying, so you can get some more informed opinions.
Generally speaking, 1055 is an acceptable choice for sword steel. it's usually a lot more important who made the sword than what type of steel they used, although in my experience 1045 steel is way too soft to stand up to any abuse and doesn't hold an edge well. The supposed 1055 steel (I think it is probably actually 5160 spring steel) used by Coldsteel swords has a good reputation for durability, and 1060 is commonly used- with a reputation for more durability compared to higher carbon steel. Since your closer to 1060 than 1045 you should be ok as long as the blade was correctly heat treated.
(this is why it would be useful to know what manufacturer you're thinking of buying from)
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Post by hissoriyoujinbou on Dec 28, 2012 20:29:26 GMT
Hi Rafael,
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately it's an auction and doesn't have the manufacturer name. It's market value is supposedly R2000 and I'm winning the auction at R599.
These are the specs it's supplied with: Fully functional live blade Shinken Katana "real sword" Black Iron Oriole and dragon tsuba cotton tsuka ito 1055 high carbon steel blade Handle has ray skin (Same'), brass mekugi and black ito Chu-kissaki (medium) Differentially tempered This katana is hand made and each is unique - size and weight will vary Weight: 41.4 oz Blade Thickness: 5/16" Blade Length: 29 1/4" Handle Length: 11 1/4" Overall Length: 40 1/2" . Supplied with a protective cloth bag and traditional maintenance kit.
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Post by chrisperoni on Dec 28, 2012 20:54:54 GMT
can you link to the auction?
1045 steel is fine- as Raphael stated it's the heat treatment that matters most. I had 3 1045 steel swords which lasted through over 3 years of regular use and maintained incredibly sharp edges. Cold Steel would say if they were using 5160, but given that is is more difficult to heat treat properly, I'm sure when they say 1060 they mean 1060.
So 1055 will be fine so long as it is heat treated properly.
Brass mekugi is usually a sign of a cheaply made sword- sorry but I just see it that way. For $70 us (= to R600) you're not spending a lot so it might be worth taking a chance.
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Post by hissoriyoujinbou on Dec 28, 2012 21:03:58 GMT
www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/85858667 ... WHITE.html The problem is, if I buy from the states, the shipping is more than the sword (got a quote from cult of athena, with shipping at $334 and the sword value at $318.)
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Dec 29, 2012 13:29:38 GMT
I have bought a number of swords from America, usually the shipping cost is around $50-$60, DHL and other more direct (and therefore faster) methods are around $90-$120, this is to Australia, where are you shipping to and are there import or tax duties added ?
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Post by Rafael on Dec 29, 2012 13:48:03 GMT
High quality bamboo for mekugi is I think called susudake. This is a really good material for mekugi in part because it is more flexible than brass and yet very durable. However, on a relatively cheap katana the bamboo used might be good stuff that has been properly treated, or it could be similar material to what they make chopsticks out of =\
Although brass is not as good as genuine susudake, it's probably better than chopstick material. Especially if there is only one mekugi. If i had to stand downswing-ward (I just made up this word, do you like it?) from a guy using a 100$ katana to chop 2" wooden dowels, and I can decide whether his sword will have a bamboo (of unknown quality) mekugi or a brass mekugi, I would probably take the brass mekugi.
In the case of having two mekugi, then its best to have a bamboo mekugi up top since it will be taking most of the force acts on the one closest to the blade and bamboo is less likely to damage the tang from torsion compared to metal on metal, and then a brass mekugi in second slot as a backup.
Anyways, brass is definitely not something you see in high end katanas, but I would bet you 5$ and a 12" tall paper mache statue of Kumdoalan as Hercules that the cheaper a katana is, the less likely the mekugi is to be made with high quality bamboo that has been smoked, cured, and sung to, (etc..) properly. So if we factor in the chance of having really crappy/unsafe bamboo then having a brass mekugi is maybe not so bad on a sub-100$ sword.
Chris is correct that Brass mekugi don't seem to be a sign of high quality tho, since cheness uses them and cheness tsuka an handle assemblies are not know for their lack of crappiness.
That 300$ shipping quote is brutal. Is this to ship to South Africa?
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Post by hissoriyoujinbou on Dec 29, 2012 13:56:05 GMT
Yip, that was the quote to ship to South Africa. That's excluding whatever the import tax will be on such an item. So a $300 katana ends up costing somewhere closer to R6000 plus customs tax. Well I won the auction at R599, so I think it'll just have to be a good 1st sword until I move to Japan and get a better one
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Post by stickem on Dec 29, 2012 14:08:43 GMT
Here is the Dynasty Forge website, which specifically calls their 1060 "Spring Steel" : www.dynastyforge.com/index.php/Tamahagane-Line/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=74&Itemid=75It seems DF and CS source from the same Huanuo forge... CS calls their steel "1055" and this is their description: www.coldsteel.com/FAQs.aspxWhere they state their steel is Fe + C + Mn and nothing else. Hanwei and other vendors sometimes use some rather vague descriptions of their steels too... perhaps trying to keep things somewhat secretive. For instance, one of the Hanwei swords I have is listed as "high carbon steel" without further explanation...
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Post by Rafael on Dec 29, 2012 14:14:41 GMT
Congrats man. I love savoring the anticipation of waiting for a sword to arrive . Enjoy, and best of luck with outcome. For your next purchase, you might want to look into some of those Chinese eBay vendors like Huawei or STNihonto. Since they charge around 50$ US to ship to the United States and many of their items include free shipping, it seems like shipping to South Africa shouldn't be a problem as far as wildly increasing prices. Check their fine print, just in case maybe they don't semprini to SA. The guy in the Die Antwoord music video for baby's on fire" has a Japanese style sword at one point. Somehow I get the feeling he did not pay $300 for shipping lol, and they are South African Here is the link tO the vid for anyone interested. It might be the greatest music video of all time. It's worth searching for the version that has the intro but it's requiring me to login right now to link it off yoytube saying it's age restrict content. so here is the safe for work version (sort of) with no intro movie ... ata_playeryour welcome everyone
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Post by Rafael on Dec 29, 2012 14:31:00 GMT
If you read the cold steel website makes it sound like all the swords are made in America this is one of the things the first got me interested in them plus their legendary quality. I now own several cold steel swords have to tell you they really are fooking awesome. However since then I learned that huanuo was actually making all of CS's Asian/Chinese swords and probably all of the European ones also. A certain famous swordsman with the initials SR witnessed European swords being made at the Huanuo factory china. When he said wow I didn't realize you made European swords he was told by his guide that those were being made for cold steel. A big part of CS marketing is about how their swords are made to supertough specifications and I agree they are definitely a bit heavier and beefier than standard Huanuo items, having used both. However it is my opinion coldsteel calls it 1055 to distract from the fact that they are not actually making the swords so since very few other people are specifically using 1055 steel I think it is ultimately just a marketing ploy to set them apart from others. Everything Huanuo makes that costs less than $1000 is made with 5160 steel. If you call Scott Rodell at seven stars trading he will explain it to you.
I find it extremely hard to believe that part of the special standards coldsteel has them make the swords to is using a different type of steel than what Huanuos smiths making the 3-500$ stuff are used to working with. I believe them that the swords are sturdier than usual because it's not that difficult for the Forge to add some width or thickness to a blade. It does however require drastic adjustments to use a different type of steel than what all of the techniques they are used to have been designed for. It's for this reason that I think the business about using 1055 steel is bullsemprini. I could be wrong, just my opinion, but it seems much more likely that it's just the same 5160 steel Huanuo uses for everything else, but made thicker as per Coldsteel's specifications. Yes Huanuo uses other steels or combos in their 1000$+ stuff, but since those cost slot more there are probably more skilled smiths (of whom less are Available) making those, compared to the guys cranking out 300$ production swords for ColdSteel as quickly as possible.
Great swords tho, I can't reccomend enough lol
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Post by hissoriyoujinbou on Dec 29, 2012 16:39:12 GMT
Lol, I think the only people who like Die Antwoord are people outside of South Africa. You want decent Afrikaans music, listen to some Straatlig Kinders (translates to Streetlight children). In my opinion, they are one of the best produced South African bands beside Tweak and CrashCarBurn.
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Post by chrisperoni on Dec 29, 2012 22:28:49 GMT
well Raphael, you certainly have studied up on it more than I
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Post by stickem on Dec 29, 2012 23:55:37 GMT
Could be the CS 1055 steel and the DF 1060 "spring steel" could be the same thing with different names to help distinguish the two companies.... but seems more likely they would call 'em the same thing if they are. Dunno if the differences in how steel is described in the US and in China could account for discrepancies in how they are reported, and how often the steels are "mislabled" by forges as a "trade secret" and all that stuff :? Here is a reference which talks about this in greater depth: web.archive.org/web/20070127135646/http://www.astm.org/BOOKSTORE/PUBS/DS67B_SampleChapter.pdfIt also may be purely some sort of marketing gimmick. I can't think of any other major manufacturer else off the top of my head using "1055" steel or Carbon V, so it does kind of make CS seem unique... Regardless, my experience is the Dynasty Forge, Huanuo, and Cold Steel swords made from this stuff are all tougher than nails. Regardless of what steel # we put on them, they all seem to come from the same place. Huanuo does make sub-$1000 swords out 1095 as well though: www.huanuo-sword-art.com/huanuoswordartjapaneseswords.htmlso I doubt Scott Rodell meant to say everything Huanuo makes under $1000 is 5160 steel. This comment was probably more of a generalization than the literal truth
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Post by Rafael on Dec 30, 2012 1:44:48 GMT
True, he was talking about the Chinese style swords, never mentioned the Japanese stuff. Good point.
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Post by hissoriyoujinbou on Dec 30, 2012 11:01:26 GMT
I will upload pics from opening the box etc if you guys are keen to experience this with me?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 13:08:09 GMT
No, the steels are not the same, Cold Steel's 1055 steel is really 1055 and Dynasty Forge stuff is 1060 and neither of these high carbon steels are 5160 which is itself a spring steel! Huanuo produces Cold Steel's Asian swords, but to Cold Steel's specifications - that means the type of steel, sword weight, blade profiles, etc. Some of Cold Steel's other swords, such as their sabres, I believe are made in India by Windlass, but to a higher specification and quality control level than standard Windlass fare. There's more to a blade than the steel com[position, and CS specification for heat treatment on 1055 works fine. As long as it's not 1045 which is only a medium carbon steel, any of the high carbon steels do the job just fine. I recommend people read the SBG guide "Common Sword Steels 101", this answers a lot of questions for beginners - www.sword-manufacturers-guide.co ... teels.html
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Post by stickem on Dec 30, 2012 15:37:01 GMT
They may very well be different steels used in DF, CS, & Huanuo as advertised. Just suggesting some of it may be marketing tricks as well... like Carbon V and all that stuff. Here is a reference with a bit more detail on the elemental composition of these steels, as the SMG link unfortunately doesn't list their compositions: zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtmlwhich shows the main difference between 1060/1055: zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=1095%2C1084%2C1070%2C1060%2C1050and 5160: zknives.com/knives/steels/5160.shtmlis the 10XX series steels seem to be C and Mn alloyed with Fe... while the 5160 contains these 2 elements plus Si and Cr. So I guess we could analyze the DF, CS, and Huanuo offerings to see if there is Cr in 'em... but given that they all perform similarly well, I dunno if it is that important to find out. I think what is more important is they are all tough as hell, though CS offerings tend to be a bit heavier to me than the that of the others...
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Post by stickem on Dec 30, 2012 16:00:11 GMT
Gotcha. The Huanuo Chinese swords are called "high carbon steel" on his website, which does sound like they could all be 5160. www.sevenstarstrading.com/html/huanuo/Seems more doubtful the katana are all 5160...
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