Which steel or steels do you think make the best swords?
Dec 2, 2012 15:06:52 GMT
Post by Rafael on Dec 2, 2012 15:06:52 GMT
Happy sunday everyone. Do you have a favorite type of sword steel? If so, what are your reasons for liking that steel? Do you have a favorite manufacturer or a few favorites that use that type of steel?
Even though the skill of the smith matters more than the type of steel used, let's talk about steel anyway!
I concede that the smith matters more than the particular steel.
As Lunaman pointed out with an elegant metaphor (where tomatoes=steel and swords=tomatosauce):
"A master chef, if he changed tomato strains, would adjust his recipe to still produce the best sauce he could. He would always make the best sauce he could. Just because another chef's recipe, in another kitchen, using different methods, from a different school of cooking, found great results using tomato strain B instead of tomato strain A, DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN that the first chef would improve his sauce by substituting tomato strain B into his cooking without changing anything. It could very well make it worse. The chef and his cooking process is more important to the sauce than the initial tomato strain, because the chef can achieve his desired sauce with a number of different tomato strains BY ADJUSTING HIS COOKING PROCESS. His EXPERTISE is what makes the sauce good. NOT THE TOMATO. Even though there ARE real differences between the tomatoes. These differences are SMALL and over the course of the cooking process, other factors play a dramatic role in altering the final state of the sauce far beyond the initial differences between the tomatoes."
This is a good point.
So, for the sake of this discussion, let's take it for granted that what is most important is the quality of the Italian grandmother making the sauce NOT the type of tomatoes used.
BUT Since different tomatoes do yield different results, and most Italian grandmothers swear by a particular type of tomato, let's talk about the attributes of different steels and the ways that the type of steel used influences the qualities of the sword produced.
I am also willing to discuss actual tomato types but send me a PM for fruits/vegetables.
This link navigates to a summary of major types of sword steel and general attributes of each:
www.sword-manufacturers-guide.co ... teels.html
In general, blades with higher carbon content approaching 1% are much harder compared to softer steels like the popular 1060 which is 0.6% carbon. But as carbon content and hardness increases so does brittleness, which reduces the toughness of the blade and makes it less forgiving of accidents or situational bending and twisting.
Some steels also include relatively high amounts of silicon and other elements like manganese or tungsten which can make a blade more flexible and durable. This is the strategy taken with the popular spring steels, which utilize 1060 steel with Si and higher manganese, and T 10 steel which is basically 1095ish steel + Si + tungsten. It should be noted that at least some of the T10 steel being produced in China does not use tungsten and is actually a manganese alloy but still with the carbon content similar to 1095 steel (0.95%) but usually higher (1% or more)
For those interested Here is a link to a discussion of Chinese T10 steel. Props to Kuya for the link and for making me aware of it.
www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?102853-Finally-T-10-Tool-Steel-Composition
So we can think of Chinese T10 as a variant of the 9260 and 5160 spring steels. The silicon and manganese content is similar but "Chinese T10" has carbon content around 1% and the other two have 0.6%. So Chinese T10 should still have increased flexibility combined with nice hardness, similarly to the supposed qualities of 'actual' T10 steel. If the qualities previously attributed by Paul Southern to T10 steel were being determined by him while test cutting with what ws actually this same no-tungsten stuff, then I guess it doesn't really matter what elements are or are not there as long as it a very hard blade with nice flexibility.
As far as 9260 and 5160 compared to each other, here is some info I gathered comparing the two as sold by the same manufacturer:
steel manufacturer= Tianjin Daqiang Steel Co., Ltd.
5120 spring steel 600-670$/ton
In china called 60CrMnA, in japan called SUP9A no german equivalent
C=0.56-0.64 Si=0.17-0.37 Mn=0.70-1.00 Cr=0.70-1.00
daqiang.en.alibaba.com/product/5 ... pring.html
9260 spring steel 650-760$/ton
60Si2Mn (china) SUP6 (japan) 60Si7 (Germany)
C=0.56-0.64 Si=1.50-2.00 Mn=0.60-0.90 Cr≤0.35
daqiang.en.alibaba.com/product/6 ... rings.html
Another vendor had a somewhat different recipe for 1000-3000$ per ton
C =0.52-.60
Si =1.5-2.0
Mn =1.0-1.3
Cr =0.35
Ni =0.35
Cu=0.25
Analysis:
so the 9260 has more silicon, less manganese, and less chromium compared to 5160.
ive heard that manganese makes blade steel harder but also increases brittleness. silicon is also supposed to increase durability and flexibility. also, as we all probably know, higher chromium amount helps combat corrosion but at the cost of rather famously reducing toughness in the quantities used in stainless steel.
qualities of different alloying metals taken from here: (cached version)
webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us
so comparing 9260 to 5160, 9260 seems to have more of what makes you tough and less of what makes you brittle.
it should also be alot more flexible (increased tensile strength versus 5160 steel according to the sword steels link at top)
Even though the skill of the smith matters more than the type of steel used, let's talk about steel anyway!
I concede that the smith matters more than the particular steel.
As Lunaman pointed out with an elegant metaphor (where tomatoes=steel and swords=tomatosauce):
"A master chef, if he changed tomato strains, would adjust his recipe to still produce the best sauce he could. He would always make the best sauce he could. Just because another chef's recipe, in another kitchen, using different methods, from a different school of cooking, found great results using tomato strain B instead of tomato strain A, DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN that the first chef would improve his sauce by substituting tomato strain B into his cooking without changing anything. It could very well make it worse. The chef and his cooking process is more important to the sauce than the initial tomato strain, because the chef can achieve his desired sauce with a number of different tomato strains BY ADJUSTING HIS COOKING PROCESS. His EXPERTISE is what makes the sauce good. NOT THE TOMATO. Even though there ARE real differences between the tomatoes. These differences are SMALL and over the course of the cooking process, other factors play a dramatic role in altering the final state of the sauce far beyond the initial differences between the tomatoes."
This is a good point.
So, for the sake of this discussion, let's take it for granted that what is most important is the quality of the Italian grandmother making the sauce NOT the type of tomatoes used.
BUT Since different tomatoes do yield different results, and most Italian grandmothers swear by a particular type of tomato, let's talk about the attributes of different steels and the ways that the type of steel used influences the qualities of the sword produced.
I am also willing to discuss actual tomato types but send me a PM for fruits/vegetables.
This link navigates to a summary of major types of sword steel and general attributes of each:
www.sword-manufacturers-guide.co ... teels.html
In general, blades with higher carbon content approaching 1% are much harder compared to softer steels like the popular 1060 which is 0.6% carbon. But as carbon content and hardness increases so does brittleness, which reduces the toughness of the blade and makes it less forgiving of accidents or situational bending and twisting.
Some steels also include relatively high amounts of silicon and other elements like manganese or tungsten which can make a blade more flexible and durable. This is the strategy taken with the popular spring steels, which utilize 1060 steel with Si and higher manganese, and T 10 steel which is basically 1095ish steel + Si + tungsten. It should be noted that at least some of the T10 steel being produced in China does not use tungsten and is actually a manganese alloy but still with the carbon content similar to 1095 steel (0.95%) but usually higher (1% or more)
For those interested Here is a link to a discussion of Chinese T10 steel. Props to Kuya for the link and for making me aware of it.
www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?102853-Finally-T-10-Tool-Steel-Composition
So we can think of Chinese T10 as a variant of the 9260 and 5160 spring steels. The silicon and manganese content is similar but "Chinese T10" has carbon content around 1% and the other two have 0.6%. So Chinese T10 should still have increased flexibility combined with nice hardness, similarly to the supposed qualities of 'actual' T10 steel. If the qualities previously attributed by Paul Southern to T10 steel were being determined by him while test cutting with what ws actually this same no-tungsten stuff, then I guess it doesn't really matter what elements are or are not there as long as it a very hard blade with nice flexibility.
As far as 9260 and 5160 compared to each other, here is some info I gathered comparing the two as sold by the same manufacturer:
steel manufacturer= Tianjin Daqiang Steel Co., Ltd.
5120 spring steel 600-670$/ton
In china called 60CrMnA, in japan called SUP9A no german equivalent
C=0.56-0.64 Si=0.17-0.37 Mn=0.70-1.00 Cr=0.70-1.00
daqiang.en.alibaba.com/product/5 ... pring.html
9260 spring steel 650-760$/ton
60Si2Mn (china) SUP6 (japan) 60Si7 (Germany)
C=0.56-0.64 Si=1.50-2.00 Mn=0.60-0.90 Cr≤0.35
daqiang.en.alibaba.com/product/6 ... rings.html
Another vendor had a somewhat different recipe for 1000-3000$ per ton
C =0.52-.60
Si =1.5-2.0
Mn =1.0-1.3
Cr =0.35
Ni =0.35
Cu=0.25
Analysis:
so the 9260 has more silicon, less manganese, and less chromium compared to 5160.
ive heard that manganese makes blade steel harder but also increases brittleness. silicon is also supposed to increase durability and flexibility. also, as we all probably know, higher chromium amount helps combat corrosion but at the cost of rather famously reducing toughness in the quantities used in stainless steel.
qualities of different alloying metals taken from here: (cached version)
webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us
so comparing 9260 to 5160, 9260 seems to have more of what makes you tough and less of what makes you brittle.
it should also be alot more flexible (increased tensile strength versus 5160 steel according to the sword steels link at top)