Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Nov 29, 2012 2:21:35 GMT
:? No. Jesus. Your apple analogy is terrible. Heat treatment would have to happen after you pick the apple. And the types of steels aren't anywhere near as different as different apple strains. Maybe if you talked about pie, no. no. It's like.... It's like we're talking about the best marinara sauces made by the best chefs in the world, (some of whom make completely different styles of pasta dishes) and you are harping on about whether they should have started with a mama leone tomato ripened on the vine or an Eva purple ball tomato ripened off the vine. Yes there are real difference at the start and yes, they behave differently as you cook them, but... just... This is... UGHH. I can't do this.
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Post by Rafael on Nov 29, 2012 3:34:26 GMT
while you were gathering gifs, i found this information and price comparison from a steel manufacturer Tianjin Daqiang Steel Co., Ltd. that actually sells both types. it took forever to find one company selling both types. now that the great lebowski, dead pirate roberts, and that guy that is like a low budget brad pitt are involved i am feeling pretty demoralized. still, here is what i found so far. also has elemental composition for each 5120 spring steel 600-670$/ton In china called 60CrMnA, in japan called SUP9A no german equivalent C=0.56-0.64 Si=0.17-0.37 Mn=0.70-1.00 Cr=0.70-1.00 daqiang.en.alibaba.com/product/5 ... pring.html 9260 spring steel 650-760$/ton 60Si2Mn (china) SUP6 (japan) 60Si7 (Germany) C=0.56-0.64 Si=1.50-2.00 Mn=0.60-0.90 Cr≤0.35 daqiang.en.alibaba.com/product/6 ... rings.html Another vendor had a somewhat different recipe for 1000-3000$ per ton C =0.52-.60 Si =1.5-2.0 Mn =1.0-1.3 Cr =0.35 Ni =0.35 Cu=0.25
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Post by Rafael on Nov 29, 2012 3:40:42 GMT
sorry for the bad fruit analogy, here have an apple. you are correct sir in your analogy about which tomato variety yields the best finished sauce. that is exactly what i am metaphorically talking about. now we are on the same page it would seem like an unimportant detail to the uninitiated but different italian grandmothers swear by either roma, campari etc. ultimately most people just want a sauce that gets the job done, but it can be fun to figure out what makes the best sauce for different applications. maybe the best sauce uses a combination of different steels laminated together (just kidding)
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Post by Rafael on Nov 29, 2012 4:02:37 GMT
analyzing what i found, so the 9260 has more silicon, less manganese, and less chromium compared to 5160. ive heard that manganese makes blade steel harder but also increases brittleness. thats why T10 supposedly gains toughness by using tungsten and less or maybe no manganese (i dont know and am done with research for tonight). silicon is also supposed to increase durability. also, as we all probably know, higher chromium amount helpd combat erosion but also reduces toughness. qualities of different alloying metals taken from here: (cached version) webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us so comparing 9260 to 5160, 9260 seems to have more of what makes you tough and less of what makes you brittle. it should also be alot more flexible (tensile strength). flexibility does matter for killing zombies or large attacking animals because when the blade hits bone its going to twist, and if it doesnt have enough tensile strength its going to break or bend. I accept that shear strength is also important, but i would expect that increased brittleness would not go hand in hand with shear strength i interpret toughness to include shear strength, but i really have no clue
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Lunaman
Senior Forumite
Posts: 3,974
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Post by Lunaman on Nov 29, 2012 4:10:57 GMT
HOW can you understand the new analogy and still miss the point?
A master chef, if he changed tomato strains, would adjust his recipe to still produce the best sauce he could. He would always make the best sauce he could. Just because another chef's recipe, in another kitchen, using different methods, from a different school of cooking, found great results using tomato strain B instead of tomato strain A, DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN that the first chef would improve his sauce by substituting tomato strain B into his cooking without changing anything. It could very well make it worse. The chef and his cooking process is more important to the sauce than the initial tomato strain, because the chef can achieve his desired sauce with a number of different tomato strains BY ADJUSTING HIS COOKING PROCESS. His EXPERTISE is what makes the sauce good. NOT THE semprini TOMATO. Even though there ARE real differences between the tomatoes. These differences are SMALL and over the course of the cooking process, other factors play a dramatic role in altering the final state of the sauce far beyond the initial differences between the tomatoes.
Where is Dan Davis when you need him?
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Nov 29, 2012 6:05:29 GMT
Luna, take it easy man. I see your point but it could've been said in a more polite way. Besides, please do something about all these gifs ... I like 'em but they're impolite and slow my old desktop computer down.
Rafael : Luna's point is that quality control is far more important than the steel used. It is far more important to have a maker that can reliably, properly forge steel than one that will claim ''super-steel''-made blades but forge 'em improperly. Some makers often throw around certain steel-types names like they are some kind of uber-material, it's a marketing trick. A very-well tempered 1060 katana will fulfill the requirements of most backyard cutters just fine, even if some textes and some maker claim that 9260 or S30V or unobtainium will do better.
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Lunaman
Senior Forumite
Posts: 3,974
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Post by Lunaman on Nov 29, 2012 6:19:29 GMT
I apologize. And you're right. I got agitated and was rude.
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Post by Rafael on Nov 29, 2012 12:59:21 GMT
I really wasn't trying to be annnoying, it figures that i would be very sucessful at it. What Lunaman is saying that agrees with everything reputable I have read is that it's more important who made your sword then what exact type of high carbon steel your sword is made of.
It's obviously an oversimplification to say that the type of steel makes no difference at all, but for someone with relatively little sword experience like the OP (or myself) who is thinking about buyin a new sword it's probably a much better idea to focus on who made the sword or what company made the sword rather than wasting time thinking about what type of steel versus another type of steel is best
Since that is good advice and that is also more or less what you were trying to communicate, thank you for the good advice Lunaman
It would probably be more fun to talk about which steel makes the best sword or which tomato makes the best sauce over a few beers, or a bottle of scotch. Then again we might just end up like a couple of drunken Scotsmen, wearing no pants and yelling at each other incoherently
(edit to correct spelling)
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Nov 29, 2012 14:07:08 GMT
:lol: Thinking outside the box - A 25" Sirupati may be worth looking at, for the princely sum of $200 you can buy one and go berserker in your local forest, now if it really appeals there are a number of forum members/smiths who could make you a custom from quality spring steel, I personally prefer 9260 but have plenty of blades made of 5160 as well.
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Post by Rafael on Nov 29, 2012 15:07:57 GMT
Aussie rabbit, do you know of any good sources for 9260 that you would consider to be better than cheness? I know stnihonto through eBay sells some 9260, has decent rep. Any others you can reccomended?
Is it just a preference for particular swords that happen to be made of 9260, or do you have other reasons for preferring 9260 over 5160?
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Nov 29, 2012 17:40:19 GMT
No hard feelings man
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2012 0:30:04 GMT
Rafael, looks like you unintentionally frustrated Luna there, his advice was sound, worth rereading what he was saying, it will help with waht you're looking for.
I wouldn't fuss with the higher grade steels, they will all do the job, today's steels are more consistent (homogenous) than those of old, and with far less impurities and advanced heat-treaatment methods, you'll be fine a blade with anything like 1060, 5160, 9260, T10, etc.
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Post by chrisperoni on Nov 30, 2012 2:04:03 GMT
I guess the rub for me is -- don't let the steel type be a deal breaker. If everything about a sword hits your wants and needs, the steel type should not stop you from getting that sword you love. Made right it will do the job.
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Post by Rafael on Nov 30, 2012 2:11:27 GMT
i read and believe what he said, i should probably read it again as you suggest since there is good info there. if the takehome message is that i shouldnt worry about steel types and instead focus on finding a quality manufacturer that produces a quality sword then i think i do understand. I should also apologize to everyone for trying to split hairs about steel types in this particular tthread, because ultimately the OP was asking for help choosing a good ko-katana. nobody said anything about what type of spring steel is better because ultimately its not relevant to this topic. the skill of the smith is what matters for sword to be good. It just got me thinking about the issue of 5160 vs 9260 because i had recently read that other page about different sword steels, i wondered (and still wonder) why people seem to prefer working with the 5160. I still want to talk about it and hear what people have to say about why they prefer the type they prefer, if they do like in the case of aussie-rabbit, have a preference. But i was doing it in an inappropriate place so i apologize sincerely and wouldnt never intentionally anger the Dread Pirate Roberts, who is known to not take any prisoners. sorry again, and good luck with the ko-katana man... that ZT waki or kat looks nice
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Post by Dr. Whom on Nov 30, 2012 2:51:59 GMT
I also personally prefer 5160, 9260, and CPM3V ( RK2 are my favorite katanas).
If heat treated properly (mono tempered), these spring steels should bend back to original shape if bent on botched cuts. I like CPM3V because Rick Barrett once said " The 3V is a PIA to work due to its abrasion resistance but gotta be the toughest sword steel I've ever used. Definitely an end all be all zombie apocalypse blade. "
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Nov 30, 2012 4:54:28 GMT
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