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Post by gtk4158a on Nov 27, 2012 15:45:54 GMT
I am still having problems with my "one and only' Katana purchase for a number of reasons. My budget is up to 1000.00 or maybe 200.00 more and once again, in order of priorities ...
1. It has to be traditional and not a 'heavy beater" 2. Must be Well built, preference to Steel quality, forging technique and hardening and a "tanto style" tip and not the needle tip. 3. traditional, utilitarian fittings with an emphasis on overall quality and no emphasis on beauty other then how it preforms on targets a samurai would have used it on... I.E. self defence, survival, Zombies "LOL", and i hate to say this because i Do not ever want to use it on a Human being, but yea, a "softie" . 4. Must be "forgiving", reliable, dependable,.
Now all that being said... I am thinking about a Ko- katana and Ronin does not make a elite model in the "Ko" configuration. I do not want a "waki" and want the full size Handle. Also, and here is the kicker... For 1200.00 i am in the ballpark of a Japanese built katana and do not have a clue as to what sites might have something that might be of interest !...
To Sum it up, what has caught my eye is the ronin elite, but i want a Ko katana because it would be more "practical' to strap to a backpack or to use in a "inside" enviroment.. Please, no lectures on training because i have found a great Dojo and will start training very soon and will buy a "cutter: that the sensai requires whenever i get to that point.I want a "carry " sword that i would use in a survival situation if my M1a or glock fails or runs out of ammo and am gonna consider buying japanese if that is what i must do if there are not any very good options for a 1000.00-1200.00 "ko".... Last thing.... who makes the best production "ko" in the lower price range?
This site and people are simply the best !!!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 16:33:51 GMT
Im sure you mean $100? But not likely you mean $2000. Surely if your planing to spend "any" thousand you are already drooling over what you want and know enough about them not to have to ask. I haven't seen a modern production chinese sword yet that i would even consider spending $1000 on.
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Post by gtk4158a on Nov 27, 2012 21:08:53 GMT
i did indeed mean 1000.00 plus a bit.. You can buy a decent knife for 100.00 bucks but there isnt any way imaginable that a good quality sword is available for that price.. that said, i was asking to get "opinions" and of course your " knowledge" would have been invaluable. I have looked and done research and will continue... If you honestly have helpful thoughts then please let me know. I am not "drooling" over anything nor will i ever be.. i am doing this soberly and trying to add something to my "arsenal" worthy of having and not starting a collection of 200.00 dollar inferior items when i could get 1 sword that at first, cost more, but in the longterm, a much wiser aquisition! but thanks for your thoughts and i will value them in the same spirit as you posted them !!
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Nov 27, 2012 22:14:28 GMT
If you really want a "carry" sword that's a "ko" you might want to check out Barry Dawson's Millenium or Dark Knight shortswords. Here's Larry Jordan's review of one of his Dawsons. (but please keep reading beyond this picture.) I don't know of any traditionally constructed "ko"s in that price range because the "ko" isn't traditional. At that price range you'll find many nice wakizashi and full-size katana models, but you won't really find this hybridized type. The word kokatana actually refers to the small utility knives that were integrated along the saya. I don't know how the term came to colloquially mean a waki blade with a katana hilt, but apparently the name has stuck. A "ko" isn't actually " more 'practical' to strap to a backpack or to use in a 'inside' enviroment" if it has a traditional saya, and nor is any sword really a good idea for " use in a survival situation if my M1a or glock fails or runs out of ammo"--- but if the zombie or tacticool design sensibilities float your boat I'm certainly not saying anything against that preference. I myself think ko kats are cool. It's just that there are some less expensive ways to get that fix if you aren't chasing traditional construction and differential hardening at the same time. The hanwei tactical wakizashi is designed with that attitude in mind, as is the Swamp Rat Rodent Ruki or Waki. Even the spledidly-named " Zombietools" have a couple of blades in that style. Heck, somebody might be willing to sell a rare Wiwingti Ko Kat if you look into the second-hand market. Or you could get a Huawei Custom that would pretty much ensure you get the dimensions of blade that you'd like, but the fittings and hilt might not be up to the snuff you are looking for. It seems like it would be helpful to suss out the differences in priority between some of the attributes you're looking for. Do you really want a very nice traditionally made sword? Or do you want a "carry sword" of "ko" proportions? Those lead to slightly different paths without much overlap.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 2:40:41 GMT
'Survival situation' Japanese style blade, either Hanwei tactical wakizashi - has a longer 8 1/2" handle that can be used with both hands in a hand-and -a-half grip, or, if you want a more traditional look, the Cheness Oniyuri, with ko-katana length blade and very long handle will probably suit your requirements, no need to spend big dollars.
With the kind of money you're talking about you could get a high end Hanwei blade, possibly a Bugei, Huanuo, and there are a few other brands that make good $1000+ proper size katana.
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Post by Dr. Whom on Nov 28, 2012 3:06:23 GMT
Zombie tools Apokatana seemed like a good fit if you can bypass the traditional. Seems like it would be much less maintenance than a traditional katana.
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Post by chrisperoni on Nov 28, 2012 3:21:59 GMT
at your budget I think for sure you can get the blade you want made to order, solid iron fittings purchased, and a custom made tsuka by say FranktheBunny. To me that would be the best option- everything ordered just for you and fitted perfectly one piece at a time
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Nov 28, 2012 5:46:29 GMT
Buy the initial blade for part of your budget, then spend the rest customizing it to your taste. That's perfect. I say do what he said.
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Post by Kumdoalan on Nov 28, 2012 11:43:11 GMT
I have strong feelings against the "tactical" line of swords.
They just dont have much business being sold to people that want to be part of a class on swords, or who want to have something around to display.
They are great weapons however. I cant think of a better sword-type weapon to have in your hand if you hear a noise in the night and are not sure whats going on? And they are a nice sword to carry with you as you go for a walk in the woods as they dont mind rain or being left out overnight in the weather.
But their design aim is very different than what a sword collector is looking for. And they just dont appeal much to the eye if displayed...
I have cut with one, and you notice right away that a good grip is an issue after a few cuts and sweat becomes a problem.
They make a great sword for cutting all kinds of stuff for the backyard cutters who like to trim trees and cut stuff they find around the yard.
The Saya on that sword also can take a beating and it made to be forgotten and stepped on and stuff. But as for actually carrying the sword as you walk around town or jamming it into the seat bags of a bike?...well, it's just going to cause people to point fingers and draw attention to yourself. Also, its an invitation for someone to grab if the handle is left out a little to handy.
If you were teaching in a sword class the tactical is useless. The handle is glued on, the blade is coated, you cant teach a class of student anything about how to assemble their own swords or how to care for a sword.
But I dont think it was designed to be taken into a dojo. Its designed to be taken into the woods, and then left under a bed for years....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 11:58:49 GMT
Kumo, a properly made tactical version of any historical weapons should be able to be utilised in exactly the same way, only difference it that it is built with more modern materials, making it far more durable, and better fit for purpose. Technically, if the 'modern interpretation' is done right, it should work as well or better than the original. If the interpreation or influence is a very loose one, then it might not adapt as well to the proper techniques designed for the historic weapon. That's the important distinction.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Nov 28, 2012 12:11:50 GMT
1 and 4 (and the description of what you wanted to use the sword for) don't go together really. Practical/Tactical doesn't mix well with "traditional." A forgiving tactical back-up "carry sword" for when you run out of ammo isn't going to be a DH blade. It's going to be TH. But either way you don't have to spend $1K for a sword that matches your requirements. These are your current options from what I've found on the forum (in alphabetical order):
Cheness 9260 Ko Katana (well below your price range) Custom Ko Katana (the only way you're going to get what you want and spend the money you want to spend) Hanwei Tactical Wakizashi (has a two-handed sized handle, but not traditional and well below your price range) Munetoshi Ko-Katana (well below your price range) Ronin Dojo Pro Ko Katana (well below your price range)
Without going custom, I just don't see how you're going to get what you want for how much you want to spend.
This just doesn't go together. Ronin Elites are highly functional art. That may get me in a bit of trouble, but special multi-steel laminated differentially hardened blades(what most of the price for a Ronin Elite goes toward) with intricate fittings and tsuka just are not meant for the purpose you have in mind. And really, despite the awesomeness of "The Walking Dead," when it really comes down to it, a katana style blade is not the best tool for the job you're describing. That's why "Special Forces" don't have katana as their "carry blades."
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Post by gtk4158a on Nov 28, 2012 15:59:10 GMT
I am simply overwhelmed by all of your more then generous responces and i thank you all "wholeheartedly"! This information was invaluable and gave me a excellent source of my "direction" i will take... I had thought that " more money" equaled " better product" and to a certain degree it does... The blades from "zombie tools" looked Very interesting and a likley canidate because i would indeed rather support "American made" if possible and because the designs and builds look very durable and menaceing while the 'saluatory effect' would be much the same as having a bayonet attached to a rifle... bad guys would think twice about their chances... a 9mm and a 'dcapitan' would be an intimidating image to behold...
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Nov 28, 2012 16:31:00 GMT
The ZT Apokatana is ridiculously awesome. Get it if it appeals to you. I left it out of my list, because you had "traditional" and not a heavy beater as your #1 thing on the list. However, if we remove that need... the Apokatana will meet your wants/needs just fine.
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Post by Rafael on Nov 28, 2012 19:56:17 GMT
ZT also makes a wakizashi-like blade with 22" blade and 8.5" handle. That might be closer to what you want than their apokatana. On the other hand, considering your budget you could just get one of each.
For an apocalypse situation I would probably rather have a 9260 sword than 5160 sword (ZT uses 5160). Since 9260 has double the tensile strength of 5160. it's harder to get first aid or get a replacement sword if the one you are using breaks from cutting down too many mutant alligators, zombies, space aliens, or mole men.
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Post by Rafael on Nov 28, 2012 20:00:18 GMT
On the other, other hand, ZT and huanuo both use 5160 and have good reps. Is 5160 easier to work with than 9260? Or why do people use 5161 if 9260 is really twice as strong in bend break test?
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Nov 28, 2012 21:03:32 GMT
Where are you getting these numbers? The final strength and durability of the sword has FAR more to do with the heat-treatment process and the smith than the steel type, assuming you start with a steel in the acceptable range of high-carbon tool steels.
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Post by Rafael on Nov 28, 2012 22:33:27 GMT
Numbers from here www.sword-manufacturers-guide.co ... teels.html I agree with you that a well tempered sword is going to work better than a poorly tempered sword, regardless of what type of steel they are made of. I was citing the increased tensile strength of one versus the other unde optimal conditions I guess.. let me clarify the scenario: that two swords are made by the same smith with the same process and he does exactly the same quality of work both times. In that scenario the 9260 sword is supposed to have double the tensile strength of the 5160 sword. So that made me wonder why don't they all try to use the 9260, is the 5160 maybe easier to work with? maybe it has some other property which allows it to outperform 9260 in some other crucial way that has nothing to do with tensile strength? Oraye the 5160 is just less expensive for them to get?
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Nov 29, 2012 0:52:48 GMT
Hahaha, ok. That section deals in extreme generalization and is designed as an introduction to steel types, not a discussion of differences that are always apparent across the board. It's very unscientific, but at least a helpful introduction. You are taking the distinctions made there to be way more concrete and extreme than they actually are. There is no "under optimal conditions here." Steels react differently to different processes and whatever process yielded double tensile strength according to efunda for their steel statistics would not be the same process used for treating sword blades. Also, tensile strength has almost no benefit for a sword blade. At all. Tensile strength is how much stretching force a material can withstand before it fails, like the amount of weight a cable can hold up before it stretches or breaks. What's more important for a sword is SHEAR strength (how it resists snapping when stresses are applied perpendicular to the length of the blade) and its ability to hold a hard edge, among other traits. Here's a relevant xkcd about what tensile strength is good for and why it shouldn't be sought at the cost of other measures of material resiliency. My point is, heat treating steel is a very complicated process (That is way too complicated for me to understand, but I can understand many of the results) and it's about balancing different trade-offs in the material at the end, and certain outcomes will help a sword perform the tasks it's meant to, while other outcomes don't. A process that creates a piece with high tensile strength might also give it too soft of an edge to be useful. A process that results in a hard and long wearing edge might also be too brittle to be used. A heat treatment that worked well with one steel type would often work poorly for another, and vice versa. Makers have to tailor their processes to the type of steel and the type of sword they are making; there is really no across the board "better" when it comes to acceptable steels. Cheness's talk about 9260 as a supersteel is just marketing hype (as it is most of the time a blade maker speaks a lot about of their type of steel as being special). It's not special steels that make good swords, it is special craftsmen. Tinker Pearce, for example, uses 5160 because it is a very versatile steel when given different treatments and he has been able to get it to do anything that various "supersteels" have claimed over the years. It's readily available, and the marquenching process he developed for his blades was developed using 5160. So he keeps using it. When Hanwei consulted him for their Hanwei/Tinker line, he explained his process and the steel he uses, so now the Tinker line is made using 5160. Hanwei likely uses the same 5160 steel in their raptor line because they then had to stock 5160 anyway. I know some custom makers tend to prefer steel that's most easy to get a hold of in the dimensions they tend to work in, from the suppliers in the area they live. Maybe a certain steel is better suited to the forge and quench set up they have at their workshop than another. Maybe a certain steel produces a more prominent temper line. What matters at the end of the day is the quality and attributes of the sword that comes out the other side of all these processes. When you buy from people who are experts who have spent their lives working with steel to make blades as excellent as possible, and they can demonstrate the quality of the finished pieces, it's perfectly fine to let them have the benefit of the doubt when it comes to what steel they ended up choosing to work with. Here, for example, is a blade made from plain old 1075 carbon steel that was made by expert smith Rick Barrett. And it's superb.
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Post by chrisperoni on Nov 29, 2012 1:01:46 GMT
Let me preface by saying I mean no ill will here nor do I wish to offend anyone. I feel this is a great thread and a very good twist on the "tactical" sword debate - which to get and why. truly I do. I just wanted to say-- I love reading a good Lunaman post ftw! Cheers all (edit/add: removed some of the smileys- I was trying to add enough to get the point of not being rude across- think I overdid it lol)
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Post by Rafael on Nov 29, 2012 2:09:02 GMT
lunamon, thanks for bring up shear strength. its nice to talk about the differences in the performace of different kinds of steels. I know very little about this topic but i find it fascinating.
Ok so tensile strength is not the same and shear strength, but does the 5160 actually have better shear strength compared to 9260? It is not outside the realm of possibility that If 9260 has stronger tensile strength, it may also be stronger than 5120 in other ways. I need to try to find a mettalurgy source that has a comparison between the properties of the two. I am not even sure what the difference in the two is as far as composition, only that both have the same carbon content as aisi 1060. Without additional research, i would be more inclined to assume that the one with double the tensile strength is also stronger in other ways, as opposed to assuming that it is weaker. I will attempt to research this matter further.
cheness might be all hype, but if the video of them bending the sword past 90 degrees without taking a set or breaking is real, then the 9260 does seem pretty impressive. completely trusting everything i see on youtube would admittedly be pretty dumb tho.
i dont even carry car keys around anymore, now that i can just use my CS tanto to cut the lock out of my car door every morning. :mrgreen:
If what you are ultimately saying is that some of the examples of 5160 sword craft availabe for purchase are superior in quality to anything being made by cheness then i would say that you are probably correct. the reputation of ZT and Huanuo both seem superior to cheness, at least as far as quality control is concerned. However, that doesnt really mean that 9260 steel is not better than 5160 steel. It means that one swordmaker is better than the other.
True, but steel is still what the swords are made of, and different steels do have different properties. It seems obvious to me that If a smith could live long enough to become equally skilled with all types of steel then swords made by her using different steels would seemingly have different properties as far as shear strength, hardness etc. You can respond to any question about which of two steels is better by reminding us that bad steel with good temper is better than good steel with bad temper.. and that a good smith is better than a bad smith. But then we miss out on a chance to compare the actual properties of two different steels.
Thats like saying that you cant compare one variety of apple to another because variety is meaningless, its all about who grew the apple. Yes, ok, its pointless to argue about which we think tastes better, since that is not qualitative. But it can still MAYBE be useful to compare which is more red, which is sweeter, which has more tensile strength, or which hurts more to be hit in the head with.
Maybe if the guy that became awesome at making 5160 swords had learned to use 9260 instead they would be even better? :shock:
i think you probably hit the nail on the head that they are using the 5160 steel because they already know how to and/or they already have a good source for it. perhaps its not actually inherently 'better', its just easier to work with for one or more reasons.
(edited for typo)
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