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Post by Lancelot Chan on Nov 10, 2012 7:16:49 GMT
I agree with you. Good equipment alone is nothing if not teamed with proper attitude. I keep kicking out those who just came for "winning" by "gaming the rules". So those "gaming the rules" guys formed up their own group eventually and don't bother me anymore. LOL!
Hell, if I remember correctly you were younger than I am. How come you claim you are old now?
We didn't train Lee Ga before he went to Wudang, but he couldn't beat us. We have videos of his test cuts during the day and he couldn't cut the pork arms in 1 strike. Nor the newspapers. So you can see how difficult it was to cut that newspapers roll that I cut.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Nov 10, 2012 7:18:30 GMT
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 10, 2012 7:45:14 GMT
Hahaha! Yeah I am younger than you of course, I am born 1984, but damn I think my experience got me older. I was not more happy and fortunate than you in my past too. It was quite a badass painful history instead. Seriously do you believe that my own mother hired a con man (Lo chin) to hunt me down and nuke my temple and even to kill me a few years ago? I have to fight them off my temple a few times when they attempt break in at night and I have to 24/7 armed myself with weapons to defend against their attack if they come. It was really crazy and that is why my kungfu changed too. There is zero tolerance for impractical semprini.
I saw the video you posted (2nd link) just awhile ago and I was like.. damn that sword weight 4.9lb on your scale! What a heavy blade! Did you get that custom made or something? The dadao that Lee was holding is kinda funny.. it was like he chop the feet at first and it fly away.. then camera came in and he was like putting up a pose.. hahahaha! I can just say he is like a guy who love fame and face, yeah, his career need that maybe. But I am 100% agree with what you said, the wet newspaper and pork feet are very hard to chop. Even you put the pork feet on the table and chop it with a cleaver is already very impossible to chop it in half with one strike, now hanging it in the air and weld a 4.9lb sword in hand to chop that in half? No way. hahaha! You really made some history, probably Cold Steel need to hire you to do their promotion videos in the future to show a new style of test cutting, hahaha! They use to cut a lot of meat too but never a pork feet like that.
I still remember you talk about the dipping technique of Chinese sword back then and you was so crazy to sharpen a long chuen sword blade with an akanas stone by hand then to compare the result with a cold steel gim sword. hahaha! That really did piss a lot of people off for sure, shattered a lot of fantasy and dream from the kungfu market. hahaha!
Honestly, I am very much over with those filmsy swords now. The sword I use now for training is mostly my beloved han style sword that weight 2.3lb or so.. and a Cold Moon Sword that is extra long weighting 3,9lb. I wish I can find a 5lb sword like yours, but too bad, no hope for a "sword". I do have big blades that are like 6lb or up though, and they do make me very happy, haha!
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Nov 10, 2012 7:56:44 GMT
Yes, custom made by Tinker. Well, I hope you have a smoother path ahead then! Lee Gar thought it was easy to cut the pork arms, because he used to see me cutting them as if it was nothing. The director of the program asked me on the scene where it was possible to cut the pork arms in one strike. I said yes, if it was me doing the cut. LOL! Yes, if you're to pursue real Chinese swords, don't expect to pay cheap. I have inside information of Lung Chuan (since I was invited to test swords for them, I got to know the industry secrets) and to make long story short, it's better if you get Huanuo or Hanwei stuff.... or simply go custom by well known smiths in the west. Quality ain't cheap. The "more-affordable" Chinese swords are very likely to fail at the moment you need it the most.  It's sad. |
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 10, 2012 8:03:18 GMT
My path now is settled and much smoother than before because we battled off the crap ourselves and it was quite a good experience that toughen myself up too. Mentally and physically.
haha.. I see, well custom is ALWAYS expensive, that's no joke. Hanwei seems good but I heard many bad review on the damascus taichi sword (which cost like $350-$400 at cheap places already). So yeah, it's really hard to think. I am more of a CS fans. I use my swords more for practice forms and drills, not cutting like the insane Lancelot, hahaha.. so I am fine with most of the normal stuff. What I am looking for is mainly the design and the weight number one, then if that sword come sharpen and really for battle-ready then I am more happy.
Long Chuen... well.. yeah, the swords nowadays downgraded ALOT too. Dang.. even the cheap class.
The jade lion sword by CS was my recent purchase and it was quite good for the handling but I doubt it can survive your brutal test with the pork feet and stuff. did you test that sword on your side before?
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Nov 10, 2012 8:11:13 GMT
I usually only test the mono-steel stuff, because they were meant for business.
Huanuo / Cold steel monosteel stuff can hold up to pork arms testing very well. Your trust in them is well-placed. Complex material / construction methods to resurrect the old ways, are very likely resulted in workmanship mistakes, thus resurrecting the old sword's performance as well. Damascus steel, though, can't cut hard plastic bottles without dulling the edge!
Hanwei mono-steel stuff also holds up well against pork arms.
Metallurgy nowadays are much better than the old days, that's scientific advancement. What they used to strive for centuries, were practically the mono high carbon steel our industries produce everyday. All those forge and folded were to cleanse the old steel from impurity, which actually aiming to be our mono-high carbon steel as their goal.
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 10, 2012 8:17:25 GMT
Haha.. I see. Well, you made me wanna get a CS GIm soon then. I got a butterfly sword by CS and they are quite durable, the edge does hold well against the soup can test as well (the harder ones), but the jade lion did not hold as well and got a minor damage too. Dang.. there goes my precious...
Okay, nice one, I might think about trying out some mono-steel blade in the future for some pork feet, especially good for winter when we can do vinegar pork feet with eggs afterward (the chinese food!). haha! Do you even eat those pork feet you chop anyway?
Do you think the damascus thing get dull because the way it was sharpened? or because of the steel anyway? what was the factor? I fine tune the jade lion sword with ultra fine sandpaper and the edge seems to hold much better, what is the thing going on here? Can you help me out?
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Nov 10, 2012 8:24:48 GMT
Usually the damascus sword were sharpened to a flat grind (very sharp) due to that the buyers are not likely to do some heavy cutting with them. So sharpening does affect the result. But it was not the only factor. The western Damascus style you see right now (the true Damascus is something else, called Wootz), is a mixture of higher carbon steel with a lower carbon one. So it actually causes the sword to be "softer, ideally tougher as well". But you know usually they just get the "softer" part, without getting the "tougher" part, sigh..... So the edge can't hold, with both factors in play. You can see a huanuo mono steel gim in action here: www.rsw.com.hk/carp.zipA long time ago video. |
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 10, 2012 8:40:06 GMT
Cool, thanks for the analyzing. Now I know why the edge can't hold too well even though CS tested their sword in the promo vid with stabbing the jade lion thru a car hood.. I doubt that can happen with mine without some damage to the blade. hahaha.. no, I am NOT going to test it!
Oh yeah that carp gim, I thought that was a cold steel Gim (the basic one) because of the design! I saw that vid before and the last cut where you chop it on a SOFT cardboard box is kinda crazy. Skills and the blade is both important in this kind of chopping because the soft box already eat a lof of the impact and it's not pushing the feet for you to chop it too. Nice one. Now I really want to try cutting some pork feets, hahaha! That is easier to do because I can put it on a cutting board and chop it instead of hanging it up, hahaha.. My fiance is going to love it, save her hassle from the chopping with cleaver, hahaha!
I guess the others were right in this thread earlier.. it is hard to find a Chinese sword that is good nowadays but easy to find many katanas and stuff like that. Sigh~
So from your tests, anything ranging $300-$500 range is "good enough" if not going custom? Sounds pretty wild but yet I do see the point. Good swords don't come cheap. That's true, even a lot of tai chi master will hate you when you say that cuz they love their filmsy stuff so much due to the air-weight factor, LOL!
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Nov 10, 2012 9:48:46 GMT
Yup, it was the previous model cold steel sword. Cold Steel gets their swords from various sellers, most of them came from Huanuo, and some others from Windlass. So it's identically the same.
For 300 to 500 range the best you can get is Huanuo stuff, which you can get through cold steel and dynasty forge. Even the Seven Stars Trading Company mentioned by someone before, gets their stuff from Huanuo.
I know how most Chinese martial arts masters were so addicted to those unrealistic filmsy stuff. And they thought they were real. Nevermind them. Most don't even know about the history of swords.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Nov 10, 2012 9:54:46 GMT
Even though I'm not that much into Chinese swords (just can't afford to focus on swords of every culture  ), this has been a fun thread to watch. And hopefully someday I will get at least one Chinese sword in my collection too. As Huanuo was already mentioned in this thread, here is the link to their site: www.huanuosword.com/It's no secret that Cold Steel sources some of their products from Huanuo. Over the years I've gotten a liking to Fred Chen (Huanuo) Japanese stuff, as they make good stuff for the price. Granted I've never had their high end stuff, because they start to be at pretty hefty prices, and I have mostly other intrests than modern production stuff. Rolled up wet newspaper is a good but hard target to cut. I have only limited cutting experience and I don't cut a lot, but I'd say it's a good and challenging target. Before I tried it I was bit suspicious, but after trying it I was amazed. I think with my soaking time of c.10-20 mins it's a lot harder and challenging target than a propely soaked tatami omote. Plus you can get newspaper for free, as tatami omote costs quite a bit here in Finland. The price alone is not for sure indicator of anything, as there are overpriced products out there. But sticking into well proven manufacturers is a good and safe line, you mostly get a good deal for your money. |
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Nov 10, 2012 11:36:22 GMT
Your soaking time is correct. 10 to 20 mins are enough.  It's at least 3 times more difficult than a properly soaked tatami target, claimed by some experienced Hong Kong Toyama Ryu friends.  They all had very much difficulty in cutting them with their usual tatami-cutting techniques. I like newspapers targets for several reasons. First, it's not so sensitive on a sword's sharpness. I've cut a 2.5" diameter newspapers roll with a 1.5mm edge blunt sword with horizontal cut. Not so sensitive on the sharpness is a good thing, for I prefer swords that features robust edge geometry and newspapers roll targets allow me to practice cutting on them even with such edge geometry. Secondly, it's free and quick to prepare. These are obvious. Thirdly, it requires the cutter to know how to "Fajin". The unfixed newspapers rolls will both clamp down the cutting blade and stop the sword midway and fly away from the cutting stand with the impact. So in order to cut it before it flies away, one has to be able to "Fajin" through the target. This characteristic holds true even to those swords that are very sharp. So it basically took "sharpness" out of the equation, and put "skill" into it, which I like for training! |
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 10, 2012 12:49:40 GMT
10 yrs ago, I would disagree with you because I was so brainwashed by those filmsy crap too. Today, I am 100% agreeing with you and that is one thing why I love this forum now. I found true-swords lover and not just a bunch of kungfu wannabe guys. I went to kungfu forums before and people don't even get what I am talking about. Sigh!
Well if that is the case I think I am pretty good going for cold steel now. I am aiming for some of Cold Steel stuff and maybe soon the hanwei too. For Huanuo, their website is so hard to reach and purchase, kinda clueless how to proceed, haha.
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 10, 2012 12:53:52 GMT
So basically you soak newspaper in water and then wait 20mins.. then roll them up into a roll and then tie it up with something and let it dry up for cutting? or you cut it wet  Sounds like a fun thing to try soon or later. Especially you said it's not sensitive on the sharpness of the edge, that sounds kinda fun so I can use my other blunter swords on this as well, sounds cool. |
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Nov 10, 2012 13:32:13 GMT
Roll first, tape it up, then soak, if you don't want to get your hands dirty rolling with the wet newspapers. Leave a bit space in the center for the water to go through. If you want more challenge, you may roll it tighter but the water will have difficulty soaking the center of it. I had cut totally dry and very tightly bound newspapers, as if hitting a wooden pole! It'll dull your swords though, so don't blame me afterward if you decided to do this.
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Post by LastGodslayer on Nov 10, 2012 14:23:17 GMT
I love this thread. Love hearing you guys share your views and way of doing things.
When cutting wet newspaper, would just very high tip speed be enough to make the cut before the newspaper flies off? Fajin is explosive power? Is it something that can be done while traveling (moving relatively to the target?)
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Nov 10, 2012 14:33:22 GMT
High tip speed alone won't do. It must be done with enough mass behind it. Light swords can't do much against thick newspapers roll for it absorbs momentum very well. Yes, Fajin is explosive power and yes it can be done while already in the move.
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 10, 2012 19:01:14 GMT
Great stuff, I will try the wet newspaper roll in the future when I got some around. It sounds fun! I don't mind the sword's edge dulling because I can always get it sharp again myself, haha! Fun to try and feel something there in the practice.
Regarding fajin, I wanted to add something here...
There is a very wrong concept in many kungfu people's mind about fajin.. and that is very clearly shown with the wudang master chen xi xin. (or chen si hung whatever the pronunciation is). In the video, he told that HK guy "Lee" to try doing a thrust and he said if your thrust is good, you should be able to "make a sound" with the sword. Dang, that is so wrong. It's a total wushu crap that brainwashed people with that "sound" from the flexible blades, usually only the lighter swords like those taichi use swords are like that.. and the that "sound" is more like a "trick" that you can get without ANY martial art background in one day, then you are a master already? no way.
A successful thrust or a good thrust should have good penetration power, as Lancelot said, with pack of mass behind it while having the ability to "explode" a short distance power to "thrust" it into the target instead of "pushing" the sword into the target. If you try thrusting with a blunt sword toward a empty cardboard box loosely placed on the ground (thrusting forward), you will know. if you do it badly, the tip just push the box and it slides.. if you thrust well, it will poke through the box. Fun test.
The "sound" part is very silly. In fact, all those battle ready swords don't make a silly sound unless your thing rattles and wobbles, hahaha.. all the blades are very sturdy and they don't make ANY sound. We should focus on the "result" and "effect" more as a judgement to how well our moves are instead of the "tricks" and "illusions" that distracts us from the real thing. What do you guys think?
In my style of martial arts, my forms are done rather smooth and flowing, doing sword forms are for the effect of "dao yin" 導引 in chi kung, that's my focus personally, and so it should be done smooth and flowingly. But I do actually do drills with power and fajin style as well which is also very important to learn as a martial artist. This is my 2cent~
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Nov 10, 2012 19:34:48 GMT
Only the very tight, totally dry newspapers rolls will dull your sword quick. The normal wet ones won't dull your sword right away. Just like normal usage.
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 10, 2012 20:17:04 GMT
Thanks, I will definitely try that out.
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It's sad.
), this has been a fun thread to watch. And hopefully someday I will get at least one Chinese sword in my collection too.
It's at least 3 times more difficult than a properly soaked tatami target, claimed by some experienced Hong Kong Toyama Ryu friends. 
They all had very much difficulty in cutting them with their usual tatami-cutting techniques. 
