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Post by Nox on Nov 6, 2012 13:25:34 GMT
The damascus jian from hanwei has a thinner blade than the jade lion, and the handle on mine came loose from just practicing forms and swinging it around, I never tried to cut with it because of that.
The hanwei cutting sword has a nice tang, the nicest I have seen on a jian, it is decently wide, also the blade is wider than most production jian, it has a plain satin finish though, no patterns or polish so it's not that attractive.
The sword is not that flimsy, it will flex when it cuts tough objects, but in a good way. The other thing about it though is that it feels more like a hand and a half/two handed jian...so it is not that graceful in one hand forms, but it has decent weight to it. ( mine also came not so sharp)
unlike the japanese sword market, the chinese sword market especially when it comes to jian is tough, so far I have tried out/owned almost every major production jian and still can't find the perfect one.
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 6, 2012 14:09:19 GMT
Hey you read my mind! I just got this question wanted to ask last night- why there are so many good Japanese sword on the market for less $ and Chinese jian are always crap and not durable or really that battle ready?! That is one big question. Dragon well is producing LOTS OF CRAP these days with their fake damascus and crappy blades, even more and more rat tail on the modern non-wallhangers too. Crazy poor QC that you don't even want to buy them online.. even those that cost around $1k can come in a crappy condition too. I bought 3 sharpened one before, hand forged and they shipped over (claim to be) and stuck at custom because they don't even write the forms right.. then I call in and custom seized them all and request the sended to contact and then the Chinese / China people just don't move their ass to deal with it and there goes my $1k+ to nothing! I hate it! China business people really F me up! That is also why I went for cold steel instead because at least there is a guarantee I can get the sword at the end no matter what price you pay.
I also got some from my local shop that I use for practice and recently I just sharpened one.. the han sword and it is quite good. high carbon steel blade and just good enough for most cutting, It's under $200 too!!
Cool eh? I think there is a fancy version out there with better steel and stuff but it cost a lot. This one is only $200 range and I love it for what it is~
Yeah one more thing, most kungfu masters (Chinese) HATE these swords because their wrist power is not enough to manipulate them and they went and trash talk these good swords and say "wrong balance... too heavy..." blah blah blah and all thsoe BS.. and so you see those so called masters always use the wushu crap swords on the stage and they just love it because they are air weight and do not make them look weak, hahaha! I am not joking but I had seen enough laughable famous masters like that. Give them a good sword that is 2 lb and up, they will really be mad at you!
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Post by Nox on Nov 6, 2012 16:56:52 GMT
I don't have much experience with the han jian( the round handles scare me a bit), that one in your vid looks like it is pretty tough, but how does the tang look? I think some kung fu schools like to use the lighter wushu spring steel swords mainly to do forms and such not really to teach sword fighting or cutting, and also like you said for demonstration. I have used those types of swords for combat in short films and such with my friends because they are light and not that harmful, some of them are kinda durable being made of spring steel...though what I find funny is that the fittings and the way the swords are put together on those cheap swords (with cheap brass, cheap wooden grips, and those little screw and nut deals at the pommel) is pretty much the same way the "battle ready" ones are made, only recently have some sword makers started to add wooden pegs in the tangs much like the katana, but some times the tangs on Jian are too thin to make a hole for one. If I could and had a few thousand lying around I would commision someone to make me a "tactical" Jian, tactical in the sense that the handle is part of the blade itself. similar to this zombietools.net/images/weapons/z ... lf_600.jpg that way I wouldn't have to worry about the grip falling apart and the blade turning out of place from alot of use. |
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 6, 2012 18:11:17 GMT
haha.. that's right, if you got money, make your own! The cheaper swords is indeed lighter but what scare you is that these kungfu school doesn't use what you are thinking of.. they are using the chrome plated air-weight cheapo swords that are scary light. They don't have any design at all to the sword and the blade is made of chrome plated copper like steel sheets. If you sand them with sandpaper, you see some copper underneath it. It's really crappy. Those swords are so light that they can already cut like a razor.. way too thin and light.
The Han jian I have is quite okay tough I think, I am good with the round handle too. It feels great because the hilt give you that sense of where your blade goes, not the handle itself. It's actually quite good. The tang is not HUGE but it is big enough and it's a full tang of course, with some threads at the end for the last nut cap to screw on. The handle is one piece hollowed out, pretty sturdy and they don't shake, wobble, vibrate and so on too. I do agree, adding a peg in the tang is great idea, but many tangs are too thin to do that. I realize that some antiques jian also don't have a peg too, no wonder people favor the saber and broadsword more. The CS Battle gim surely have a peg there as you can see from the hole at the handle where they loop a tassle around, so that is a +1.
I used to say this all the time, the human should know how to do kungfu to fit a sword, not a sword to fit your kungfu. So whatever sword come to me, I know how to handle it well with a different style of movements. Just like some people HATE those movie replicas such as the hero sword and they trash talk it so much because they are trying to use it to do some tai chi forms. Of course it sucks. Now here is what I do with the sword, it works 100% good and you feel the war vibe when you do it too. Sword form is what was created after the sword was designed, so why limit ourselves? have fun~
If your tactical jian dream come true, remember to post a nice review and I am surely going to read it! It's what in my head too, so cool. I hope some swordsmith can make an affordable one! Maybe CS will come up with a jian machete one day, hahahaha!
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Post by LastGodslayer on Nov 6, 2012 18:35:11 GMT
Thanks for the review and the great pictures. I had come across some of your demonstrations on youtube and was quite impressed with your efficient use of the space available to you.
One question, although you already clarified this somewhat on your review, is the edge truly flat all the way from the center ridge to the edge (true diamond shape)? Is there any appleseeding on the blade?
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 6, 2012 20:01:15 GMT
Thanks! I am happy to know someone already saw me before on youtube! haha! You saw my guan dao form in that little space? Cool eh?
The edge is really a true diamond shape edge, I can tell you that my recent (today) mod to the sword was to use super fine sandpaper to polish the 2 sides and it got the blade to a totally different kind of sharpness. I used 220 and then 320, 400, 600, 800, 1000, 2000 and 3000 grit sandpaper to polish it up.. the blade is like a mirror already and the edge is WAY better than the factory edge. I think the chipped blade is due to the problem with the factory edge sharpening work which is very poor. The edge is rough and cling onto a fiber cloth if you wipe the blade down.. so you can even feel a blur there on the edge like they overdone some sharpening and honing on one side.. so that can cause the weak edge of sure. Now it is so polished and so well refined, I doubt it will chip again easily.
I also find the hilt / guard moved abit and it can somehow have tiny movements and turning.. so I attempted to fix it with the nut in the pommel but no hope.. there is a peg in the tang I think cuz I have no way to get the handle to move out of the tang, so it should be pegged as well. The problem is the guard got loosen up.. so I have to use my JB weld to weld the blade and the hilt in place and now they are permanently GLUED together securely! I just tried it again today and it is super good!!!! Love the sword 100% now!
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Post by LastGodslayer on Nov 6, 2012 21:01:52 GMT
Very cool! I wish I had such a good range perception.
A bit of tweaking is to be expected (unfortunately) from any production sword. I just wish such a nice looking blade would turn out to be the exception. In any case, I'm finding an interest in diamond cross section swords. I'm amazed that a true diamond shaped edge can be so functional. I hope that a more adequate steel might allow this kind of cross section unchippable.
I think (and I believe you agree) that we tend to get the wrong impression about jian in general being thin, light and flimsy, and this has shaped popular demand. A real fighting jian should be a fierce fighting weapon with impact power.
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 6, 2012 23:35:27 GMT
Nope, not to me.. haha.. I think yes, "tend to" but not really. There are many types of swords (jian), thick and fat, short and long. skinny, etc,.. No matter what kind of sword fall into my hand, I use them differently to use their advantage and maximize their killing power. This is one thing I notice from most people.. when they pickup a sword they ALWAYS just use the same techniques with the tool.. no matter you give them a bat, a stick, a sword, a knife, they do the same thing, sigh.. that is not right. It's like they can use a club and a sword the same way.. totally confused. Well, to me, I know there are Chinese swords that are thin and skinny, some are thick and fat, some are short, some are long, who cares. As long as it is in my hand, it will be used properly to use their advantage, that's a true swordsman mind. hahaha.. Here is my Jade Lion Sword form I did today. ... e=youtu.be |
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Post by Turok on Nov 7, 2012 6:40:55 GMT
Hahaha! You sure did come to the right place! That's the same thing we've all been saying for YEARS! If you think its hard to find any decent jian in the market right now, then I can assure you its even more difficult to find any daos! Especially when it is considered to be a "beginners" weapon too!
And yes from a martial artist point of view, it is practical to utilize whatever you have on hand be it a cane, baseball bat, table leg, etc. However, the Chinese jian should follow the same guidelines as in the past-to cut! I think many jian in the market are ahistorical and it allows the user to practice incorrect technique. Bad habits are always easy to pass on to others :roll: The CS Jade Lion Gim however is a nice addition to the jian market compared to everything else and I hope CS improves on their swords.
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 7, 2012 6:51:42 GMT
Hahaha.. seems like I did came to the right place then. Glad I did! Actually yes I do agree, many Daos are crappy and not many make me happy. I have a Qing Dao here with me, high carbon steel blade, and I sharpened it myself which is "okay" for fun use. Enjoy a vid!
I actually do own a few okay dao (broadswords) but you need to first categorize them into "practice weapons" or "real weapons". Some practice weapons can be nice too but they are not nice when sharpen for cutting or battle. Kungfu supplies stores are full of crappy chrome plate crap too, and those are something to avoid for sure. The problem is, I can't find any carbon steel made spear head, halberd head, and so on! That's just sad. But let me tell you the truth, Kungfu industry is dying because of China, thanks for their nice trend gearing toward the crappy wushu demonstration with kids flying in the air and doing flips and flops. Look at Shaolin temple, it's already full of that crap now and all the monks are like "monkeys" instead when they are on the stage. No difference from a circuits's show, but they do it with weapons instead. I am just over-disgusted by these monks and similar kungfu sects that gear toward the same path, it's disgusting to watch and it's sad to see. Kungfu is dying out. The fact is, good kungfu might not be good for showcase too, and good for showcase kungfu are very scammy most of the time. Dang!
Anyway, enjoy a form with my Qing Dao!
I feel good man, finally find a place that understand the sorrow as I do. I went to some kungfu place before and they all don't even get it. sigh!
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 7, 2012 7:22:35 GMT
Just a quick update here guys..
I JB-Weld the hilt and bottom of the blade together, filling in the gap and also linking the side / edge of the blade there to the hilt's base. In 24 hrs, it is fully cured and finally, finally! My Jade Lion sword transformed into a much nicer sword! At least no more silly play there with the hilt turning and moving, no silly wobble.. sigh..! Cold Steel made this EXPENSIVE sword and did not think about this problem, so sad.
At first I thought it was the nut problem and I open up the sword, tighten the nut from the back and that did not even help, it was the handle and the hilt that is moving.. or I should say the guard is moving. So the handle doesn't move, no, not at all. I think there is a peg in the handle hidden by the rayskin and so I can't see it, but I tried even using a rubber hammer to help it come out of the tang and it did not even move abit. So I guess it is pegged in. Nice one. Bad news is, the guard is doomed and cannot be fixed no matter what I do.
The fix is then now to use JB weld! I welded the inside of the hilt and the blade and it worked 100% now! Bad side is the ugly grey color but I will paint it gold later on to make it look nicer maybe, hahaha! Cool mod! In case your jade lion also wobbles, you can do this to fix it up 100%!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2012 7:39:47 GMT
Hi guys, I've been looking around for functional Chinese swords, and I discovered that Scott Rodell, who is highly proficient in Chinese swordsmanship and historical cutting techniques (he has the only book in print on cutting training, and designed the Hanwei Cutting Jian) has been testing Chinese swords for durability, much harder than any SBG tests, then testing how well they cut afterwards. The only swords he sells on his web site www.sevenstarstrading.com/html/huanuo/ are ones that he stands by, ones he knows would stand real combat because he's subjected them to extreme testing. Also, he has handled hundreds of antiques Chinese swords and is highly accomplished in using them, so he is familiar with the way the historical swords handle, and therefore can recommend Chinese swords with the same weight, feel and handling as proper historical ones. If you want to see Scott Rodell's sword testing, check it out here on his forum: Swordsmanship Product Reviews forum.grtc.org/viewforum.php?f=8There's also a discussion on cutting with Chinese swords on his forum: Test Cutting for Historical Swordsmanship forum.grtc.org/viewforum.php?f=9Enjoy! |
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 7, 2012 11:44:54 GMT
Thanks! I will take a look at those links for sure! I personally had handled a few antiques too but unfortunately our temple got a serious break-in incident in 2007 and the friggin burglars robbed them away. DANG! I will surely chop their head off if they come again. I was a setup though, a con man setup and spies digged into our temple, mixed into our students and so on and it was all a disaster.. argh.. hate to talk about this but this is really something I am SO MAD about~!
The swords I handle in the past, the antiques.. somehow they don't feel sharp when touch with fingers but when you cut, they are SCARY sharp, what kind of technology is that? I am super confused and still can't understand that with logic.. and I had banged an antique saber onto the pillar in a parking lot, it smashed a line in the stone pillar and no damage to the blade itself! Holy cow! I saw powder coming out too! That thing is TOUGH!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2012 13:12:12 GMT
That's a feature of a convex or 'appleseed' blade geometry, the sides of the blade are not flat, they curve all the way to the edge. The Scott Rodell Hanwei Cutting Jian is designed like this. Here's how convex blade edges look:  This kind of blade geometry cuts extremely well but doesn't feel sharp to the fingers. |
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 7, 2012 13:42:56 GMT
Yeah just like my Cold Steel butterfly sword is the same style too, the way to sharpen it better is really to hone and then polish with sandpaper all the way and it will do the magic already, no need to do all the hard work with benchstone much. This is cool!
I sort of not like the cutting jian due to the fact that the sword lack some design and the handle color don't match the scabbard that well, sort of a fusion kinda taste. I want something more asian like. If it is going to be an urban vibe sword, I prefer the Han style sword more for my own taste.
Yeah but I do agree my antiques back then and some I own now are all with this geometry you shown, cool!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2012 14:10:01 GMT
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 7, 2012 15:58:32 GMT
Both their site don't have prices and are hard to purchase... bad... Any friendly sites?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2012 22:05:22 GMT
You can find prices for the Huanuo swords at Seven Stars Trading, Scott Rodell's site. He lists the Huanuo price, and his discounted price, the savings are really huge, almost haldf the price: www.sevenstarstrading.com/site/huanuo/ |
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Post by MakChingYuen on Nov 8, 2012 3:03:12 GMT
I see! Thanks! Bookmarked!
I really hate those swords that have the stones (red, green, blue,etc,.) on them.. I think they make the sword look so cheapo and ugly. I am more a fans of the more clean and pure vibe. That Kin Lung saber is good stuff man but it cost like a lottery to buy! Man... wish I am rich! Good blades don't come cheap eh? haha!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2012 11:42:22 GMT
You have expensive tastes! :lol:
The Royal Peony Jian, high carbon steel blade version, has a Huanuo List Price of $1050, listed for only $395, that's a good but for a high quality jian that can do cutting without any worries.
The Round Grip Battle Sword - willow leaf saber (liuyedao) (listed by Huanuo at $500) and the Oxtail sabre (niuweidao) (listed by Huanuo at $400) are both $385 and are rated for heavy cutting. I might get this Huanuo liuyedao soon!
The many of the other swordds are bit expensive for my budget, but if I had these three swords I'd be quite happy, they look traditional and are rated for real cutting!
I already have the only Hanwei swords that Scott Rodell says are actually designed for cutting, the Cutting Jian and the Dadao. It is hard getting Chonese swords designed properly, but I must say the Jade Lion Gim is one very beautiful sword. Even if it is a light cutter only, it makes for a very nice fast blade that looks fantastic.
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