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Post by ineffableone on Sept 6, 2014 18:54:40 GMT
Just an fyi, the first description of water "power" trip hammers in China was 40 BC (though thought to go back as far as 1050 BC–221 BC) While they were first used for grains, they quickly were used for metal use. By the 1st century AD these trip hammers were widely used in China. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trip_hammer |
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Post by Billybob on Sept 8, 2014 3:55:47 GMT
There was a huge problem with bolts made in China a while back (10-15 years ago). Bolts are graded according to tensile strength, which means there are metallurgical, heat treatment and process differences between the grades. The higher the grade the more money the supplier can charge for their bolt because the more attention to detail it takes to make it. The Chinese figured out that if they stamped their grade 5 bolts as grade 8 they would get paid more. Bolts broke, machines flew apart, people got hurt and killed. Haha, they got us good on that one. Their 300 series stainless steel rusts and is magnetic (which means that it is NOT 300 series stainless). No prejudice here, just stating a fact. 60 years ago Japanese manufacturing was way behind Europe and US practices. But they have refined their processes to become a contender for quality in the world market. Things like drill bits, taps, and other metalworking tools require a very exact metallurgical make up and tempering process in order to do what they are supposed to do, every year it gets harder to tell the difference between a Chinese tap and an anywhere else tap.
I am contracted to a Japanese auto manufacturer and work in a die manufacturing facility. The Japanese manufacturers I work for are obsessed with quality, more so than the American owned facilities I am also contracted to. The difference, IMHO, is that the Japanese wanted to figure out how to make our inventions better than we make them and the Chinese just want our money. If you want a high quality sword then the Chinese will make you the cheapest high quality sword you are willing to buy. Howard Clark vs hanwei oni? Same material (remember the grade 8 bolts and the rusting stainless) but the difference is that you will only buy one howard clark if you are lucky, and most people here have owned dozens of Chinese swords.
So I do not insult Chinese manufacturing in a way I do not intend to allow me to clarify, if anyone here is familiar with SKS's you can back me up on this; if you were lucky enough to come across an SKS years ago that had all stampings in Chinese you had a very well made rifle, if you bought a "made in China" SKS with English stamping then you had a piece of junk. I am very glad that there are people from here going over there, sticking a camera in their face and asking them what they are doing and how they are doing it, and reminding their business owners that if they expect their swords to sell back here that we expect them to hold up their end of the deal too. Thank you so much to the guys who did these video's.
Now for the real final note: every metal working shop goes on a cleaning spree and tells their employees to be on their best behavior or you are fired the day before a big customer comes to take a walk through tour, regardless of what country it is in.
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Post by ineffableone on Sept 10, 2014 2:07:31 GMT
Billybob while there is some truth in what you said, there are also a lot of generalizations that make it as a whole untrue.
Not every Chinese business is run the same. Some might just be out for the US buck, other's might actually care about their product and name. Trying to lump all Chinese industry, not just sword makers, into one big "lets rip of American's" is just not true. While there are some that do contribute to that stereotype, it is not true of all Chinese industry or people.
Just looking at the sword making community in China, you see a huge difference in quality. There are some who work their butts of for the highest quality they can do. While others work their butts off to figure out how to scam people.
Sounds like pretty much any place and any people. This is not unique to China.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Sept 10, 2014 2:52:10 GMT
When Kershaw went to Japan to have his knives made there they had a "dog chasing tail" affair for a while, Kershaw presented knives and specs and asked "how much can you make these for?" the Japanese answer was "how much do you want them to cost?" Eventually Kershaw stumbled on Kai cutlery who understood Kershaw wanted quality before price, now Kershaw is a multi national company and blades are made both Japan and China.
Chinese manufacturing is improving, however the focus is still on volume, we have some Chinese vehicles now in Aussie, but they are not doing well, more than 20,000 Great Wall Motors and Chery vehicles were recalled in August 2012 for having asbestos components in their engines, safety ratings are lower than expected, even with their prices being cheaper than Korean and Japanese competition the build quality is not what Australians expect.
Early Chinese swords had the same problems, however when you put a small group of people together forging swords there is a "pride" factor that creeps in and small forges turn out good blades, many of the $100 swords are good cutters, conversely when a forge becomes big business the "pride" factor drops away and QC suffers, we have seen this with companies such as Cheness.
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Post by Robert in California on Sept 10, 2014 14:15:33 GMT
Another factor...piece work payment used to be more common in China.
Now, more workers are paid hourly.
So there is less motivation to make cr*p fast instead good stuff slower.
RinC
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Post by crewfull on Nov 24, 2014 23:23:42 GMT
tamahagane came from china. so did kana characters. though both have evolved.
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Post by Black_Lance on Nov 29, 2014 5:13:24 GMT
I got a question. Quick answer of yes or no. Im looking for a katana, that if i had to i could defend my home with. (Something that wont fall apart in any circumstance other than banging it against a BRICK.) would "Shinwa" be a good company to buy from? Yes or no.
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Post by aussie-rabbit on Nov 29, 2014 6:42:41 GMT
For your quoted use, no, get a good sub $200 9260 "beater" Huawei is a good place to start
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Post by Black_Lance on Nov 29, 2014 21:29:14 GMT
Thanks Rabbit, been trying to answer that question for years. I know its not exactly practical to defend your home with a blace but im a better martial artist than i am a marksman. Anyway, thanks again for the help. Hope you have a pleasant evening.
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Post by scottw on Sept 30, 2016 6:22:06 GMT
I know this is an older thread..but what about reviews of sub $300 swords cutting better and holding up better than $1000-$1500 swords?
It's uplifting and rather depressing at the same time..Is it because modern steel is purer, better quality then the older steel, even from 20-30 years ago? Why are there posts from people saying their $400 katana is their favorite sword, when they have 2 or 3 high end swords they paid so much money for?
Is it because t10 or springsteel is so much better than 1095, or what? Im still confused. Is luck part of the sword making process?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 30, 2016 6:33:20 GMT
That's tough to answer. Some people favor a lower priced sword because its overall feel and aesthetic fits them better than the higher priced one. My Kaze cost almost three times what my Jubei cost, but I like to use the Jubei more simply because it has a lighter blade presence. People often buy an expensive piece only to find that it's too tip heavy or too floaty or the handle is too long/short, etc. As for durability, price really doesn't have much to do with it. A $1000+ Bugei Dragonfly is not going to take what a $300ish Hanwei Raptor is, simply because the Dragonfly is made to be a lighter blade and the Raptor is made to be a tank.
Steel has come a long way, though I'm not sure that the 10XX of today is better than the 10XX of thirty years ago. Mostly it's the wider availability that I think is responsible. Way more manufacturers know how to make a serviceable sword at a price more people can afford, so people can dial in what fits them just right.
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Post by scottw on Sept 30, 2016 16:08:50 GMT
That's tough to answer. Some people favor a lower priced sword because its overall feel and aesthetic fits them better than the higher priced one. My Kaze cost almost three times what my Jubei cost, but I like to use the Jubei more simply because it has a lighter blade presence. People often buy an expensive piece only to find that it's too tip heavy or too floaty or the handle is too long/short, etc. As for durability, price really doesn't have much to do with it. A $1000+ Bugei Dragonfly is not going to take what a $300ish Hanwei Raptor is, simply because the Dragonfly is made to be a lighter blade and the Raptor is made to be a tank. Steel has come a long way, though I'm not sure that the 10XX of today is better than the 10XX of thirty years ago. Mostly it's the wider availability that I think is responsible. Way more manufacturers know how to make a serviceable sword at a price more people can afford, so people can dial in what fits them just right. I suppose as a newb to swords, i've been looking at durability as one of the major factors in determining how good a katana is. I just dont see the advantage of a beautiful, highly polished sword that cuts soft targets really well, but may chip or bend the first time you miss..over a durable, strong sword that you can bend almost 90 degrees and it springs back true. It seems kind of crazy to pay that kind of money for one..Perhaps I'll feel differently down the road. |
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 30, 2016 16:49:25 GMT
That's tough to answer. Some people favor a lower priced sword because its overall feel and aesthetic fits them better than the higher priced one. My Kaze cost almost three times what my Jubei cost, but I like to use the Jubei more simply because it has a lighter blade presence. People often buy an expensive piece only to find that it's too tip heavy or too floaty or the handle is too long/short, etc. As for durability, price really doesn't have much to do with it. A $1000+ Bugei Dragonfly is not going to take what a $300ish Hanwei Raptor is, simply because the Dragonfly is made to be a lighter blade and the Raptor is made to be a tank. Steel has come a long way, though I'm not sure that the 10XX of today is better than the 10XX of thirty years ago. Mostly it's the wider availability that I think is responsible. Way more manufacturers know how to make a serviceable sword at a price more people can afford, so people can dial in what fits them just right. I suppose as a newb to swords, i've been looking at durability as one of the major factors in determining how good a katana is. I just dont see the advantage of a beautiful, highly polished sword that cuts soft targets really well, but may chip or bend the first time you miss..over a durable, strong sword that you can bend almost 90 degrees and it springs back true. It seems kind of crazy to pay that kind of money for one..Perhaps I'll feel differently down the road. For a sword that'll spring back and forth when you bend it, I wouldn't go for a Katana. At least not a traditionally made one, I'd go for a European styled ( Cav/Infantry Sabre, Messer, Arming/Longsword etc.) Sword. |
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Sept 30, 2016 18:33:17 GMT
It really matters what your intended use for it is. Some people want a light, thin blade that will zip through mats and let them win mat cutting competitions, or just like a light, quick sword. Some people want a bulldozer that they can crash into 2 x 4's. TH swords can't take or keep as good of an edge as a DH sword, and DH swords can't take the same kind of use that a TH sword can. Most swords fall in between, and sometimes it takes a few swords to figure out where you fall. I was a "I want chop iron" guy when I started and bought the stoutest katana that I could afford at the time, only to find that I don't actually want to abuse the sword and my cutting demands are pretty low. I should have got something lighter and with a shorter blade.
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Post by scottw on Sept 30, 2016 20:30:47 GMT
I suppose as a newb to swords, i've been looking at durability as one of the major factors in determining how good a katana is. I just dont see the advantage of a beautiful, highly polished sword that cuts soft targets really well, but may chip or bend the first time you miss..over a durable, strong sword that you can bend almost 90 degrees and it springs back true. It seems kind of crazy to pay that kind of money for one..Perhaps I'll feel differently down the road. For a sword that'll spring back and forth when you bend it, I wouldn't go for a Katana. At least not a traditionally made one, I'd go for a European styled ( Cav/Infantry Sabre, Messer, Arming/Longsword etc.) Sword. Oh believe me, I've been looking at those as well. Swords are my new hobby, and I'm far from done. Saw a really nice, shorter style messer that caught my eye. Or something like a gladius. That will be my next buy. |
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Post by scottw on Sept 30, 2016 20:39:33 GMT
It really matters what your intended use for it is. Some people want a light, thin blade that will zip through mats and let them win mat cutting competitions, or just like a light, quick sword. Some people want a bulldozer that they can crash into 2 x 4's. TH swords can't take or keep as good of an edge as a DH sword, and DH swords can't take the same kind of use that a TH sword can. Most swords fall in between, and sometimes it takes a few swords to figure out where you fall. I was a "I want chop iron" guy when I started and bought the stoutest katana that I could afford at the time, only to find that I don't actually want to abuse the sword and my cutting demands are pretty low. I should have got something lighter and with a shorter blade. Just cutting bottles or bamboo for fun and to understand how to cut correctly. Backyard enthusiast  . To that end I bought a Ronin o katana, and a Ryushin custom t10. I'll be moving on to short swords next, as far as buying. I'm also looking for a decent aiato (I think I spelled it right..) or bokken for practicing safely. So far no luck on those, but I just started looking. |
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Post by Croccifixio on Oct 1, 2016 13:34:58 GMT
Iaito. Iai is the practice/art.
Hope you get to enjoy this hobby! It's fun and addictive (and expensive) but even just looking at pictures and reading up on swords is fun.
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Post by scottw on Oct 2, 2016 0:25:15 GMT
Iaito. Iai is the practice/art. Hope you get to enjoy this hobby! It's fun and addictive (and expensive) but even just looking at pictures and reading up on swords is fun. Ahh, thanks. I have many unfamiliar words floating around in my head right now. And i'm already doomed to be in this hobby for a long time..it's my new obsession:) In one week I've bought two katanas and a claymore, haha. But I'll stop there, I tend to get a little off topic and annoy mods. |
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Oct 2, 2016 0:33:03 GMT
No worries. Getting zeroed in is a good excuse to run a little out of the lines. Never feel weird about asking for clarification. As for Iaito, they come sharp and blunt. Iaito just means "practice sword", and can technically refer to any sword you use in that manner. They are mostly referred to in conjunction with the blunts, though, and if you see one being sold under the label of Iaito it is probably a blunt.
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Post by scottw on Oct 2, 2016 1:46:48 GMT
No worries. Getting zeroed in is a good excuse to run a little out of the lines. Never feel weird about asking for clarification. As for Iaito, they come sharp and blunt. Iaito just means "practice sword", and can technically refer to any sword you use in that manner. They are mostly referred to in conjunction with the blunts, though, and if you see one being sold under the label of Iaito it is probably a blunt. Thanks or the clarification. Blunt is what I'm looking for, I'll make sure I buy the correct one. |
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. To that end I bought a Ronin o katana, and a Ryushin custom t10. I'll be moving on to short swords next, as far as buying. I'm also looking for a decent aiato (I think I spelled it right..) or bokken for practicing safely. So far no luck on those, but I just started looking.
