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Post by deadbolt on May 6, 2013 16:52:52 GMT
As a new member I really appreciated this video.
I read a comment of someone saying that Chinese people are unable to own katana's. I find that very strange, and next time I see my friend from china I'm going to have to find out if it's true or not.
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Post by nesta23 on Jul 9, 2013 6:15:58 GMT
Watching this has just confused me even more. Looking at that stereotypical chinese factory, it's nothing surprising. it's absolute bare bones cheapest set up possible. Ok that's how the chinese do things across the board, but how can anyone say that it's even possible to produce anything less than adequate, let alone "high end"? In my experience with chinese manufacturing, it is just their culture and style to whack out the minimum quality acceptable at the absolute cheapest manufacturing cost, as fast as possible, so the result is that their products are just about acceptable at best. If anyone has ever dealt with heavy machinery or vehicles made in china, even the "top of the line" stuff is garbage compared to european or japanese, etc.. This is all fine, if you go by the philosophy of, you get what you pay for. But what I'm getting at here with my post is, from what I see here and a lot of online research is that with chinese katanas, i don't really know if that's true. For example, how do i know if i pay $600 - $800 for a hanwei or whatever katana, that it's superior quality and not just one of those cheap as you like wall hangers that the bored, uninterested guy on the power hammer is whacking out 2 at a time and chucking them on a pile on the floor? you get what i mean? also, with the fittings, even higher end hanwei and other swords for $1000 + the fittings look pretty minimal quality to be honest, i'm sure they are functional and all that, but i can see in the pictures, even the advertisements that they are simply not top class components. the fittings on some expensive swords look exactly the same quality as the fittings on cheap swords. I can't help feeling that the expensive swords are just marginally superior to the cheap ones and simply vastly overpriced... am i wrong? sorry for rambling, i know this post sounds confused, it's because i am a bit confused about the whole thing. i would like to buy a reasonable high end katana, 600+ but after seeing this, i'm not convinced that a 1000 dollar chinese katana is nothing more than a pig with lipstick, if you know what i mean. for example, why is a hanwei 800 dollar katana better than a cheap thing like this: www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Samura ... 3192640%26 they both obviously have the same chinese made fittings and eveything else, and everything made in the same city, and more than likely supplied by the same places regarding the smaller bits and fittings, wraps, etc.. it's even more confusing as these cheap as hell swords dont appear to be any different in any way or method of manufacture than 600+ swords. also the prices of some hanwei stuff ive seen online varies wildly in prices, same sword can be anywhere between 400 - 1400 to summarise: low end "wall hangers" - fine, you get what you pay for high end 5000+ sords - fine, real expert made swords, you get what you pay for mid range swords - totally confused, overpriced chinese crap? or genuine, well made value? :? |
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Post by xdskiller on Jul 9, 2013 6:32:23 GMT
Hoo boy, this is going to take a while. Ok lets go to your first question. You have to know a bit more about swords to begin to scratch the surface. If you want to know why the lion dog is superior, go test it out for yourself. Look at the lines, the polish, the sharpness, the durability. And for your summary, they are certainly not overpriced crap. Depeneding on who or where you buy it from, it might vary. As you learn more about swords such as alternating ito, certain levels of polisj, geometry, hamons, you will understand. I don't think its really possible to summarize it in a single post but while we're at it that sword has no taper on the tsuka, nonalternating ito and pretty cheap fittings. I recommend going over to the main site and reading some of the beginner friendly stuff.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jul 9, 2013 6:33:57 GMT
Well, the mid-range is where most of us play. It is true that you get what you pay for, but remember that all forges are different, even if their products are similar. Some use better materials, and some have better forging knowledge and capabilities. So no, the mid-range isn't primarily overpriced Chinese crap.
Take your general crappy 1045(almost always simply called "High Carbon Steel" katana. Now, I own a Ronin Katana Dojo in 1045, and I can tell you unequivocally that it is a good sword. It has handled everything that I threw at it and it is still sharp and strong. That's because they use better quality materials and have a good heat treatment...guy. Not sure what you'd call the heat-treater, but he's good.
With our market(sub-$300) it is very wise to ask first. There are people who can point you to better products that you might not have found on your own. You can get a good quality sword if you know where to look, or have enough foresight to ask.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 7:38:30 GMT
"In my experience with chinese manufacturing, it is just their culture and style to whack out the minimum quality acceptable at the absolute cheapest manufacturing cost, as fast as possible, so the result is that their products are just about acceptable at best."
No, that's definitely not the case!
The Chinese sword manufacturers will produce anything to whatever level and quality you're willing to pay for. Often the same forge will produce everything from low-end stuff to really high grade wares. The difference is the skill level of the workers who work on them, and the amount of time and quality control they apply to the work.
For cheap-assed American teenagers who want a 1045 sword for $50, there is a huge market, and the Chinese cater to it, you get what you pay for. Around the $200-$300 mark they produce better quality entry level swords made of decent steels with cheap fittings, if you step up to the mid -range to upper mid-range offerings such as Hanwei's $600-$800 swords, you see the extra quality and a much better product, which feels and handles worlds apart form the cheaper products.
The Chinese do make swords that are priced in their thousands with quality that is worth that money if you've got the money for their high-level products.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Jul 9, 2013 9:29:34 GMT
LOL@It'sImpossibleForChinesePeopleToDoQualityWork!
What you're saying is ignorant and bigoted. You're essentially saying that Chinese smith that've trained and dedicated his time and energy can't ever make something as good as an "insert race/culture here" smith. Why do you think that? Are Chinese people not as capable as other people to you? Do you think they're less than human or something?
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Post by nesta23 on Jul 9, 2013 9:47:52 GMT
i didn't say that. it is a fact that china is famous for it less than quality manufacturing, and to say otherwise is just naiive and unrealistic. the topic is specifically about chinese manufacturers and in particular the one shown in the video. my questions are regarding the methods of manufacture regarding the difference between low and mid price products, and if some mid range swords are low quality masquerading as mid range, or overpriced or whatever the case may be.
it is a fact that the majority of crap quality swords for sale on ebay or anywhere else are made in china, why you consider this bigoted is beyond me, it's just the way it is.
also i did not say anything regarding sword smiths, or their race, i am talking about the factories which mass produce these low end swords, nothing to do with sword smiths.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 13:41:58 GMT
Please watch the whole video and reread my previous post, what you're is assuming that the only part of the market that you've seen is the whole market. You're mistaken...
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jul 9, 2013 14:15:32 GMT
Hanwei forge is located in Dalian, Swordsmith668 sells stuff made in Longquan, as far as I know those 2 cities have 1600km's (1000 miles) between them.
The problem you say is "How do you know that the sword is worth X amount of money?". The answer is you have to learn to see the quality. If you can't see the difference between a 800$ Hanwei sword and the 80$ Swordsmith668 you posted, you will learn it eventually. It just takes time.
However I must agree with you on that point that Longquan made swords look quite alike. I most likely couldn't tell one sword from Longquan operating forge from another, if I saw them not knowing which vendor sells which. Majority of Longquan swords look very similar to my eye.
I think Hanwei keeps all their fittings molds etc. just for themselves. You don't see Hanwei made fittings on other Chinese katana, but you can see cheap knockoffs of Hanwei fittings on Longquan katana.
And yes some mid-end swords are just low-end swords with big price tag.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Jul 9, 2013 15:29:02 GMT
And the American mass-market industry is any better? Please...
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Post by ineffableone on Jul 9, 2013 16:06:09 GMT
About the reputation of Chinese production swords, there is a reputation of low quality katana from China, and even fake antique katana, This is fact. The way you presented it nesta23 might not have been the best way and why you got such attention for your comment.
China is not the only place with such a reputation for low quality blade smithing though. Pakistan is well know for it's low quality knives and swords also. I was aware of Pakistan's low quality before I was of China's. In fact usually lower quality than the Chinese. However both places do also produce good quality too. It is just there is a huge market for low price SLO's look through a Bud K catiloge some time and see how much useless blades they sell.
But as I mentioned these places also produce good quality too. China especially. The fact is most of the katana in production come out of China. The reason being Japan limits how many katana can be exported. So China picks up the slack in the production of katana since there is a higher demand than Japan exports. Many of these are the low quality wall hangers sure, but also there are plenty of mid range and higher quality ones being made in China also for the popular companies we buy our swords from.
So while China has a reputation of lower quality, that does not mean everything Chinese is low quality. Like anywhere you need to shop with an educated knowledge of what companies are doing good work.
US made does not always equal quality. For example, the AK-47 market. If you know the AK market you know the lowest quality is actually US made and Chinese is actually better quality. Same with Bulgarian or Romanian or Egyptian AK parts, way better than US. The US parts are considered the bottom in quality. Though you are forced to have a certain amount of US parts on any AK you buy these days due to laws on imports. So people look around and swap out the least important parts with US made since they are low quality. Could the US make decent AK parts? they could, they make decent parts for other guns, but for some reason the US AK parts are not very high quality.
My point though is just because China has the reputation, does not mean it is fully deserved. The market for actual functional katana is smaller than the market for SLO katana. More people want just wall hangers than a sword that they can use and cut with. So China fills that need with a lot of low quality blades, that is not their fault it is the fault of the people who buy these cheap blades in mass.
This is I think part of why SBG exists to help educate the consumers, letting them know they can find functional swords for similar prices as those SLO wall hangers. And yes most of those functional swords will be smithed in China, even the Euro blade market much is made in China rather than Europe. That does not mean it is poor quality, it just means the price for the consumer is affordable.
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Post by Robert in California on Jul 17, 2013 14:58:27 GMT
I have noticed one on Chinese sword seller site, that I could tell which swords came from different sword smiths by carefully the hamon. On these forged, clay-tempered blades differing smiths seem to have a certain, characteristic style of hamon.
When I was shopping for a T10 katana, the Ebay sword seller (Katana1980) sent me a photo of 5 t10 bare blades. I could see about 3 different hamon styles in those 5 blades. It seems the blade smith will sell the blades to a sword seller who then has people to chose and fit the furniture. The 5 blades did not have any mekugi holes in them, making me think the tsuka is on the blade when the mekugi hole is done. Makes sense.
As for sword quality, I concur with the others' comments.
RinC
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 17, 2013 17:17:31 GMT
Many ebay dealers buy from many different makers,whoever has the best deal available,which nono number one if you want good qc.Some have one forge they deal with,some dealers are the forge.Some know what they are doing,many dont have a clue.
Which is y the consistent recommendations are the same,Huawei and St.Nihonto.
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Post by Robert in California on Aug 2, 2013 18:41:44 GMT
What!? I have to become a Facebook member to view a person's Facebook stuff? Screw that!
RinC
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Post by Valandur on Aug 2, 2013 19:49:09 GMT
"Just say no"  |
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Post by Student of Sword on Nov 1, 2013 17:25:11 GMT
Attention to detail. Of all the video out there of forge operation, Hanwei is the few I have seen that have modern machinery. One thing I noticed that Hanwei had and no one else had (at least all the youtube videos I have seen) is the presence of a thermocouple in the forging process. That is why I trust Hanwei' heat treatment more than other forges.
Edit: I should have said "few" instead of "only one." Power hammers are modern machinery.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 2, 2013 21:57:54 GMT
Yep...why I do not buy those antique Japanese swords made 100+ years ago...no modern production equipment :-) (sorry, could not resist...I bad.)
I did talk to Katana1980 and he said that except for the really high quality swords, the standard swords were done via division of labor....one shop makes the blade; one shop polishes the blade; one shop makes sayas; etc
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Post by Student of Sword on Nov 3, 2013 22:23:29 GMT
I am pretty sure those factory workers in China master the ability to judge steel temperature by color, just like the certified smith in Japan. Not.
I don't know if you were a member of this board in its' first incarnation. There were a Cheness katana in 9260 that snapped during a cut -- not even on hard target, on bottle if I remember correctly. The grain size was very coarse. Having a thermocouple would have solve many problems with heat treatment. Otherwise, one must have many years of forging experience. I care less what steel a forge claim to use. A steel is only as good as the heat treatment its undergone.
Modern equipments can compensate somewhat for the lack of skill.
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Post by vickichan114 on Nov 18, 2013 9:54:10 GMT
:lol:
It is necessary to someone who is courage to do it.
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Post by Robert in California on Sept 6, 2014 17:59:58 GMT
Great info here re. Japanese swords made in China.
But the video is not working for me.
Help!
RinC
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