Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 16, 2012 9:53:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2012 11:29:20 GMT
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Post by stickem on Sept 16, 2012 13:07:53 GMT
Kuya~ Coincidentally someone recently asked a question about oddly-shaped tsuba on another message board. Here is the thread for ya: www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13636 BTW, if you are going to post to the Nihonto Board, make sure you know the plural of tsuba is tsuba, because those folks can be a little anal retentive about such details :lol: :shock:
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Post by SullivanSwitch on Sept 16, 2012 14:04:20 GMT
I like the Teapot one on that link, that was cool.
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Post by stickem on Sept 16, 2012 14:50:20 GMT
Kuya~ In general the answer to your question is during times of war (e.g., Muromachi period), tsuba shapes and materials were practical by necessity. For instance, tsuba were primarily made of a hard metal (e.g., iron), which can stand up to actual repetitive use in combat. So your observation is correct, the oldest tsuba are historically thick iron with relatively solid & simple shapes. Think of your KC tsuba with the two holes, which is pretty thick iron, as a modern example of this type of utilitarian design. On the other hand, during times of peace (e.g., the more recent Edo period is an example), softer metals (e.g., copper alloys) were used more often, perhaps because these were easier to work into artistic shapes. So we get shibuichi, shakudo, and brass tsuba, which aren't hard or functional as iron ones. These more ornate designs represent a shift away from practicality towards status or art, and are more fun to look at in any case. The makers of fittings had more time to be creative during the more relatively peaceful times, as opposed to times of war when large quantities of swords and tsuba were needed to arm a larger # of soldiers. So in general, you can be pretty sure the more relatively recent tsuba porn wasn't designed to be used in combat. Obviously 24K gold is too soft for a battlefield. As Ford Hallam says, you'd have to be a pretty idiotic warrior to think samurai bling was the way to go in war: www.iol.co.za/lifestyle/home-garden/home/samurai-bling-is-his-thing-1.1298894It sort of reminds me of the recent fashion trend where wanna-be-ganster kids wear pants down around their knees... as if someone who is really up to some ganster stuff is going to dress in a way which makes it impossible to run :lol: :? Not sure what ArtsBling represents on the spectrum of tsuba development, to tell you the truth :lol: But if you are looking for modern production tsuba which are practical, I'd say go with a thick tsuba made of iron or steel with a rather simple design, rather than the ornate and brassy and odd stuff. Ornate and odd is cool, just not practical. Guess it depends whether you are looking for art or practical; maybe there is a happy medium too between the two... Here is a link to more historical tsuba porn for ya: educators.mfa.org/objects/search ... geSize=100 Hard to say which one is my favorite but the thousand monkeys designs always crack me up :lol: educators.mfa.org/objects/detail ... 100&page=3
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Sept 17, 2012 12:19:31 GMT
Well I'm no tsuba guy, they have a whole world of their own (I do have books that have a lot of information on that subject). So many details as you can see from the links it's mindblowing. But from my sources I'd say the base types of tsuba shape are following. Aoigata, Marugata, Mokkogata, Kikugata, Kakugata, there is a huge variation within these and then there are some rarer variations that do not fit any of the above styles. These might be the odd shaped tsuba, that you asked for, there are dozens of styles in these too many for me to list here, and I couldn't tell anything other than their names. Those openwork animal patterns are usually referred as a style called marubori or ubuzukashi. Here is the original of that Artsfeng snake tsuba From Christies Hartman collection catalog (lots of tsuba eye candy in that one even though I prefer the plain designs): Günther Heckmann's tsuba book is another one I could recommend. It includes great 4xA4+ poster which has small pics of the 140+ tsuba and their period/school, great for quickly eyeing the variance in lots of tsuba at once. Of course there is lots of further info on every tsuba in the book itself. Stickem gave pretty through answer to the period question, and as you'll check links you'll see the picture as whole. Some the more elaborate artwork tsuba were probably never even intended to be mounted, since I think they are art by just themselves. But I still prefer the more plain look, to my eye that is more beautiful in general, although some of the "art tsuba" will take your breath away.
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Post by stickem on Sept 17, 2012 13:14:19 GMT
Here is an image (courtesy of Patrick Hastings), which shows some of the great variation in the shapes of tsuba: Jussi ~ Thanks for finding the specific snake tsuba Kuya was looking for. The Christie's Hartman Collection book is indeed a nice one to stare at for hours I agree that often the simple practical elegance of an iron tsuba is the best; however, that said, some of the artistic themes and skill it must have required to make some of the more fancy, softer-metal pieces are amazing as well in a different way. My guess is no matter how gaudy or odd most modern production tsuba are, they probably have a historical piece they are cast from. Difficult to imagine anyone at ArtsFeng fashioning an art tsuba by hand from scratch to use as a template, so they almost certainly make their tsuba from some sort of mold fashioned from an actual piece, like the snake from the Hartman Collection. This may be the answer to Kuya's question, which is I'd be willing to bet bet that all ArtsFeng tsuba are reproductions of an older piece. Some may be cast better than others, with blow holes and flash and mystery-metal alloys, and so on... Educating yourself on these subjects (the study of tsuba is called tosogu I think) often requires a hefty outlay of funds for out-of-print books. I admit I am rather uneducated in this subject, but strive to remain teachable. So here are two books which are in print and relatively inexpensive (compared to the out-of-print books like Hawley's), for those of us inclined to want more info on tsuba and other furniture: Lethal Elegance:www.amazon.com/Lethal-Elegance-Joe-Earle/dp/0878467750/ref=la_B001K82HPC_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347887162&sr=1-1Metropolitan Museum of Art:www.amazon.com/Art-Samurai-Japanese-1156-1868-Metropolitan/dp/0300142056/ref=pd_sim_b_5I have spent many hours staring at each & recommend 'em. The MFA site linked above is very cool as well, especially since it is free :lol: Speaking of free, here's a book from the Cooper-Hewitt Museum, which has more examples and terminology for ya: www.knifehelp.net/media/docs/Cooper-Hewitt%20Museum%20-%20Tsuba%20and%20Japanese%20sword%20fittings%20in%20the%20collection%20of%20the%20Cooper-Hewitt%20Museum.pdfAttachments:
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 17, 2012 13:33:11 GMT
Modern tsuba makers really need to get with the program and stop including those damn holes on the sides of the blade. Or if they NEED to be on there, incorporate them into the design in a neat and sensible way, like the way the snake one does... or that common eagle and seashells one Artsfeng has. Less than 2% of katanas sold come with those mini-knives, and the holes ruin the pictures. :x
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Post by stickem on Sept 19, 2012 1:04:15 GMT
Ahh... that explains it. While I'm not a fan of the superfluous holes either, was left wondering why they bugged you so much :lol:
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Post by frankthebunny on Sept 19, 2012 4:51:09 GMT
Kuya, I guess I'm still not used to the way you refer to certain features of Katana. part of me feels the shock of millions of disrespected Japanese sword enthusiasts, makers, collectors and practitioners when you say "those damn holes" but at the same time I guess I just have to laugh at how you so bluntly share your opinions sometimes. if you think about it, the entire sword is somewhat useless these days as we do not need them for self defense or battle as they were originally created for yet we still admire them. it's not really as if the kogai and gokatana cannot be included on the sword anymore, it's just an extra expense that many people bypass I guess. to tsubashi and those who study and collect tsuba, these "holes" have a world of information all their own as does every tiny or large part of the Japanese sword, and this is a lot of what makes these weapons and masterpieces so special and revered. I don't mean to get on your back or even to nag about it but I just thought I'd pop in and share my opinion on the way you state yours, lol by the way, there is a ton of incredibly valuable information in the many links provided above, I already have most of them in my archives but I will make sure to check out the ones I don't. thanks guys!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2012 6:34:04 GMT
Remember that the arty tsubas are the product of peacetime customising by owners to express their personalities, these are in fact miniature sculptures. I can understand what you're saying, "the functional aspects of the tsuba are disrupting the beautiful art form". Well, yes, they do, but remember there is an original reason for having a tsuba on a sword unrelated to art, the function of a hilt guard. The tsuba serves both functions, but you wouldn't use a masterfully crafted,precious, delicate tsuba on a battlefield. Also, the tsubas on swords used for battle tended to be more utilitarian and functional thick steel pieces. Depends what type of look you're trying to replicate!
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 19, 2012 9:07:09 GMT
Yeah... I'm somewhat opinionated, but I don't attack anyone or try to disrespect them. I mean, I think you first hand know how super obsessive I am about matching things and having uniformity with my orders. I have my tastes, and we're all here to share and discuss swords and what we like and don't like about them. In general, most people aren't attacking anyone (there have been inflammatory posts made by others in other threads, of course). I mean, me not liking the tsuba holes that don't match up with the design/picture/theme, is like a gun fan that prefers the straight rifle magazine over the curved one, or magazine style pistols over revolvers. If someone goes, "Man... I really don't like how those damn curved magazines look," or maybe "Damn, I think revolvers are ugly, clips for the win!" that's not an attack... just a guy talking about things he likes or dislikes about some guns. A better example would be when I left the theater after watching "Drive," some young lady was all, "OMG, that movie was so dumb, there was barely any talking." I didn't get insulted or feel disrespected. I wholly disagreed with her, and pitied that she didn't see how the scenes with a lack of words were supposed to be that way, so you could focus on the emotional and body language cues... and that in real life, people don't talk all the time, and there are more quiet wordless moments than noisy ones. TL;DR - Kuya doesn't mean to offend anyone, please don't take any of his posts as a negative or attacking tone unless he blatantly does attack. (for an example that will very much most likely not happen: "[insert name of person], YOU are so f***ing dumb.")
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Post by stickem on Sept 19, 2012 12:02:02 GMT
Kuya ~ I am no historian, so take any history I drop with a grain of salt... That said, if you look at the diagram provided of the kogai and kozuka, you'll see the kozuka (gokatana) is actually a blade. The kogai is either a hair pin (samurai top knots were very important symbolically; when the samurai era ended, they were made to shave their knots, as well as stop carrying daisho), or sometimes is split (wari-kogai) to be used as a pair of chopsticks. If I remember correctly, samurai didn't have pockets in the front of their jeans like we do. So you get netsuke and inro and so on tied to their belts to such to carry things. Considering the time period, it was probably a very natural thing to have a bunch of stuff hanging from your belt (obi) if you were a samurai. Inro and netsuke to carry things like medicine... the swords obviously were stuck through the belt as well... so I guess what you have is the equivalent of a Swiss Army knife when we talk about kogai and kozuka. The gokatana being like a pocket knife and the kozuka being more like a pick. So what now seems like just some holes to get in the way of the pictures actually had a practical function back in the day. As with all swords Japanese, there is a balance between functional and beauty that is trying to be achieved. In my opinion, the best swords find a middle path between beauty and function. There is something between a beater to be used as just a tool, and a wall hanger to just be looked at but not used... It is something to be used for slicing and dicing, yet also gazed at with admiration and appreciation for how much time and skill it took its makers to achieve, and what they were trying to express with their techniques and symbols. So while I must admit I have had the same thought as you, namely, I wish the holes didn't get in the way of the art on the other hand, who am I to say what was useful back in the day? I wasn't there & can only guess what life must have been like. So if they needed a pocket knife and a pair of chopsticks, OK. It is what it is. I get that you aren't trying to disrespect anyone. Suggest you maybe try to put on the glasses of someone living 500 years ago when you look at a sword (be it modern or antique) instead of thinking these swords are specifically designed for you or me today. Then some of these idiosyncratic things may not bug you as much, and you may appreciate them more. Just a thought...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2012 12:54:54 GMT
It's Ok Kuya, we know how particular you are about how you like things to be! Not sure if you realise that Japanese culture is quite obsessed with the principle of perfection, which is why they get so fussed about their traditional swords and how they're made. Your perspective would most likely be considered a virtue in Japanese culture!
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Post by frankthebunny on Sept 19, 2012 16:03:16 GMT
Kuya, I in no way meant that I felt you were attacking anyone. I see many more levels of interaction here in the forum other than getting along and agreeing or attacking and fighting. I see it as if I were standing in a museum along with many other art appreciators looking at a Jackson Pollock or even a Picasso and bluntly blurting out "I hate all that splatter and those damn ugly cubes!" now I am of course entitled to my opinion but that I chose to state it so crassly in front of others who might really like the pieces or at least have a better understanding of what they are seeing is something I would consider a bit disrespectful. not attacking, just maybe not as mindful as I could have been to others. you should never think that you aren't entitled to your opinion or that it shouldn't be shared, it's just maybe the delivery that could be more tactful. again, this is just my opinion and nothing else.
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Post by Vue on Sept 20, 2012 8:07:26 GMT
Hahaha Josh you know someone actually said exactly that when I was at a Picasso exhibition late last year :lol: I think President Lincoln put it best 'Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.' I understand how you feel Josh as it does not take that much effort to use the correct term when there is so many pictorial charts everywhere on the web, I also understand that Kuya is new to these things and so I just take it easy on the guy Anywho!!!
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Post by stickem on Sept 20, 2012 12:17:57 GMT
So I am pretty new to this Japanese sword stuff as well, having started this obsession about 6 months ago by getting my first katana. Then it multiplied like those Tribbles on Star Trek. As a general rule, folks like Vue and Frank the Bunny have been very helpful whenever I ask 'em a ? Thanks for this During this time, I have visited several different sword forums and seen responses from members frequently go something like this: " If you knew something about swords, you would know the answer." and " Go buy some books instead of buying swords." and " Go search the index instead of wasting our time asking questions which have already been answered." and so on... Those sort of replies (in my opinion) at best are not very helpful, and at worst come of sounding rather condescending :shock: Instead of doing that, I try to share what limited knowledge and resources I have with folks here, instead of just pointing out their ignorance. We already know we are ignorant about a specific topic when we ask a question. Is this not why we are asking the question in the first place? Remembering I am ignorant about many things too is helpful... this is part of being human. I get what Lincoln was saying, but as the cliché goes, the only stoopid ? is the one you don't ask. The hard part is many times folks (myself included) don't actually listen to the answer they get and think about what it means... So this is the thing about art: Sometimes it takes folks a while to get it. Sometimes some folks never get it at all. Different strokes for different folks. This is human nature too, as we all have our own aptitudes and dispositions and such. For instance, I didn't really get tsuba until I watched this video: and realized how much time and effort and skill it takes to make one of these little pieces of art. They are sculpture at a micro level which really has to be studied to be appreciated. After watching the video I wondered why they didn't have any of these tsuba in art museums I have been to... and why no one has really heard of them outside of sword nuts. It seems like a tragedy most folks don't know about 'em. Anyway, the bottom line is many resources have been provided in this thread re: tsuba. Some folks will take advantage of the opportunity to learn from 'em. Some folks will choose to remain ignorant about the subject, and that is fine too. But I think when someone "gets it" it a completely personal experience in relation to any particular art form. Case in point, when I first saw prints of VanGogh's work in books and on walls, I thought to myself, " That guy likes to use some pretty interesting colors. It's OK stuff. Probably wouldn't hang one in my house though." Then many years later, I saw some of his work first hand at an exhibition. The 3-D depth of them and beauty just blew me away. Completely different response. I saw a film and read a book about his life out of interest. Now he's my favorite painter, but I didn't get it until the time was right... So what my typically long-winded response is trying to say is, if nothing else, folks like me and Kuya asking all sorts of questions gives you all a chance to practice patience, which is a good thing to have :lol:
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Sept 20, 2012 18:43:22 GMT
I agree that good manners are always a good thing. However I kinda understand where some more senior collectors feel sometimes frustrated with some questions. When you have 20-30+ years of collecting under your belt and you hear the same darn question for the X'th time, and the question has been discussed already on many occasions. Although I do resort the "buying books first" advice from time to time when it comes to antiques, but heck I'm already at 10+, and I love sword books... But when it comes to production swords there aren't really books around of them. Asking questions is always useful, and I don't really mind "stupid" questions (is there such thing, really?) or even stupid answers. Heck I've given lots of stupid answers that have made me personally understand things better and learn new things when I was corrected. But I do hate intentional mocking of someone over the Internet. And it surprises me how usual that is... Likewise good two-sided argument is healthy and both sides will learn, one-sided arguments are usually just bashing. Well, back to the topic, which is tsuba shape. Various utility tools were implemented in the saya, and they may have been drawn through hitsu-ana. There are tsuba with no hitsu-ana, with 1 and with 2. I'll write more of this on the other topic regarding these. However Kuya, I might recommend looking for designs that have no hitsu-ana. There are plenty of them around, and you can always contact craftsmen to make one for you. I can heartly recommend Arek Kultucki, you can see some of his work here: www.areku.nazwa.pl/katalog/mojeprace.htm I ordered a tsuba for him for my tachi project, and I liked one design he had already done, so I asked it with out additional ana. End result was perfect for me, and I most likely will never buy any production tsuba again, as there are great craftsmen like mr. Kultucki. Well as there was the question about "funky rim", irregular rim is called kawarigata. I have pictures of some unusual tsuba of this shape. Maybe the funniest one is sideshot of mempo, which has nose, ear, chin and neck as the borders of tsuba. And I agree that the vast majority of modern Chinese made production tsuba are copies of antiques or their copies.
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Post by stickem on Sept 21, 2012 12:53:53 GMT
Jussi ~ Sorry, I just don't get their frustration & responses (and yes, we are talking about the same place). If someone asks a question here, I'll either do my best to answer it, or if I am clueless as to the answer, I'll just stay out of it. If the topic bores me, I don't bother to read it. It is rather easy to walk away and not read or reply to topics which bore you, no matter what the forum. So sorry, I just don't think there are real good excuses for being pretentious. So I have been told " Go read a book." and " Go buy books instead of swords." before. This is good advice. I realized I'd waste less money this way in the end and know more. However, the guy who told me this - and nothing more than this - is not someone I admire because of his condescending manner. This stuff is supposed to be fun. I'm not looking for a drill sergeant or another boss to tell me what to do. I have a wife already :roll: That's what I'm trying to get away from by having a hobby, right? However, I do admire the person who said, " Read a book." and he also then took the time to give me a few helpful suggestions on books to read that aren't out-of-print $500 Hawley's. Books I could actually afford to start "training my eyes" with for $50 or less and available on Amazon. How much effort does it take to write the words "Lethal Elegance" or "Metropolitan Museum of Art?" Not much... The bottom line being, any one here or any where else who acts condescending? I don't think for a moment they are actually any smarter than you or I. Really, the only difference is they have experience in a particular subject that I don't, yet... The rest is just ego or trolling or whatever word you want to use for behaving this way. So to get back to this particular thread, it is posted in the "Beginner's Section." Of course there are beginner's questions constantly posted here other folks have already asked. When I was new (and I probably still am a "beginner"), I didn't even know what I didn't know. And I appreciate your dropping the knowledge about the above tusba maker. Now I have another "free" site to go stare at tsuba all day on :lol: Perhaps I'll get the chance to have him to make one for me and see his work first hand...
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Sept 21, 2012 13:02:45 GMT
That's what makes this "the friendliest sword forum." Most of the community here doesn't have an elitist attitude and are welcoming to new and less knowledgeable people in the sword enthusiast community.
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