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Post by TheNewDavout on Jul 17, 2012 22:05:56 GMT
So...back in my younger and more impressionable years, I remember reading in a work of fiction, of a character wearing chain maille under normal clothing as concealed protection against an expected attack.I'm assuming this is ahistorical, however, I thought I'd ask. Do we have any evidence whatsoever for this practice? and if so, when and where?
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Jul 18, 2012 1:11:07 GMT
I have a friend who was warinf his chain under his duster coat after an SCA event... he got mugged and stabbed, and the chain protected him pretty damn well. I have a Ringmesh shirt its very light and could be worn under clothes.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Jul 18, 2012 12:09:35 GMT
Ahistoricity depends on period you're trying to depict. I'd say it's obviously fine in the medieval era, if difficult to pull off as medieval clothing tended to fit the body quite closely... I've heard/read stuff about it being used for a long time as a 'bulletproof/stab vest' sort of idea by nobles who could just have an old hauberk from the family castle cut down, but unfortunately I don't really have much evidence for that. If you want to do it... have fun
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Greg
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Post by Greg on Jul 18, 2012 16:51:21 GMT
I'd wear a light t-shirt between the skin and the chain tho. I hear it's rather pinchy on the chest hair, and absurdly cold if it's at all cool outside.
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Post by TheNewDavout on Jul 18, 2012 18:20:36 GMT
I was in fact assuming that one would want more than a light shirt, almost a very light gambeson, this would complicate the concealment, and fit of clothing over the maille, but would provide some padding for blunt force.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Jul 18, 2012 18:28:32 GMT
If you're wearing it under modern cloths, a good jersey knit tee will eliminate most issues. Gambesons were wore a lot more for shock/blunt trauma and the like than pinched hairs and such.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 18:31:02 GMT
...and everyone will think you're so buff! XD
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Post by ShooterMike on Jul 18, 2012 21:34:55 GMT
I have worn my Ringmesh over a Jerzee brand sweatshirt, and under a buttonup shirt. I worked well. It wasn't obvious, though it made me look a little pudgy. I've also worn the Ringmesh over a normal long sleeve tee shirt. It was less comfortable, but not too bad. When concealed with a pullover sweatshirt, it didn't show at all. And uh...well...I was well protected from shark bite, and spears weilded by cave trolls. :lol:
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Jul 18, 2012 21:50:05 GMT
I tried getting my wife to wear a ring maille bikini but she didn't go for that idea. I told her it would be good protection for her most important parts... something she didn't take well to either. lol!
I've worn ring maille for SCA events and have on some occasions thrown a duster over it - although I didn't get mugged and stabbed. I've also heard of a lady fighter in the SCA who had her full armor on at an SCA event in the Milwaukee area and was attacked and shot while she was walking to her car. The .25 caliber bullet penetrated her hardened leather armor and failed to penetrate her gambeson. I don't believe the ring maille hauberk she had under the leather armor did anything at all for her.
If you're looking for protection from knife cuts and perhaps a stab I'd say go ahead and wear maille. I wouldn't expect it to give you much in protection from blunt force trauma though, even with a t-shirt beneath it and a shirt over it.
Personally I think its too bulky for everyday wear and for the amount of weight and bulk affords too little protection unless you're wearing that ringmesh stuff. Even then I'd seriously have doubts about wearing it unless I lived in an area where violence (particularly knife violence) was prevalent.
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Post by TheNewDavout on Jul 19, 2012 0:11:55 GMT
To clarify, I'm looking to put together a historical outfit, and wondering if wearing chain under clothing could be supported historically, not planning on wearing it for protection from any "modern" threats.
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Post by Beowulf on Jul 19, 2012 8:15:44 GMT
Well, it could be supported historically I supposed, but as others have said most post Norman clothing hugged the body pretty tightly. I could definitely see such a scenario in a Viking Age context, though that's not to say they didn't have any clothing that would betray the hauberk/haubergon beneath it. Throw on something to conceal your neck, chest and hemline pretty well and then wear a cloak. Someone might have to get pretty close to spot the glint of maille peeking out on you. You should also be used to wearing that sort of weight if you don't want to tire yourself out or step heavily.
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Alan Schiff
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Post by Alan Schiff on Jul 19, 2012 21:12:05 GMT
Maille would be difficult to wear under most period clothing due to the fit, as said above. However, there is evidence that some people wore their gambeson/aketon over their maille instead of under it. Personally I wouldn't do it because your padded garment is then prone to getting cut and stabbed, but that's just my opinion. In addition, maille was often worn under a surcoat or tunic, which may or may not have sleeves.
Is there a particular reason you'd like to wear it under your clothing vs. over it? That may help us suggest suitable garments to get.
Hope that helps, Alan
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Post by TheNewDavout on Jul 19, 2012 23:06:48 GMT
So, due to lack of historical fencing groups in my area, I'm doing some SCA rapier/cut and thrust, but trying to take a more accurate path in regards to clothing/fencing when possible. I was wondering if wearing a shirt of maille under a renaissance doublet or similar could be supported historically, as this would satisfy the SCA armor/protective gear rules while still being accurate and also rather cool (in degree of awesomeness, not temperature) that, or wear a buff coat, but I'm not sure how early those came on the scene...anyone know?
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Post by american samurai on Aug 24, 2012 5:24:21 GMT
Chain armor was commonly worn under clothing in Japan by samurai, they also wore clothing with chain armor hidden between layers of cloth. If you look carefully at antique Japanese wood block prints of samurai you can often see chain armor being worn under clothing, this is represented by cross hatching at the neck, wrist, and feet. Kusari hakama (chain armor pants)
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Post by Beowulf on Aug 24, 2012 19:31:23 GMT
That's really nice! Thanks for that, AS. I'm saving those hakama pix.
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Post by K. Vander Linde on Aug 24, 2012 22:05:04 GMT
as for the fit of early cloths being to tight, i'm a chain maker btw, it is historical to have leather lace weaved throw out the chain alowing it to be tied tight to the body and keep it from moving around to much. special rings slightly larger were weaved in to the chain pattern to acomplish this. very dificult and anoying proces to lace the leather.
as for chain in the renaissance period, well there was chain worn underchothing very rare. but there was a almost a Lorica Segmentata type of under armour used, insteed of being solid plates held by leather it was a series of narow plates held by chain. the Germans wore this quite often if a member of town guard. it also found its way in to Denmark and England.
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Post by american samurai on Aug 25, 2012 16:28:24 GMT
The Japanese would sew their mail to a cloth backing. Beowulf, here is another kusari hakama, there are only two images of kusari hakama in the world that I am aware of.
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Post by Ceebs on Aug 27, 2012 8:23:40 GMT
I remember a quote about William Wallace from Blind Harry about this very topic.
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Post by TheNewDavout on Aug 28, 2012 13:28:08 GMT
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Post by Neil G. on Aug 28, 2012 13:55:42 GMT
Many muslim warriors wore jazeraint or khadagand armor which was chainmail sewn between two layers of fabric. There was a discussion on MyArmoury about it just recently... www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... nt&start=0
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