Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Jul 12, 2012 12:01:25 GMT
Its not just that. You just need to be honest about your intentions because were it just that you wouldn't be so outright hostile about Hanwei. Not that I care but I think if you're going to be so hostile about a company and outright attack it like you do then you should come clean as to why you are that way. I have some companies I'm outright hostile towards too - like Ryanswords. However I've had personal experience with them and they lie about the quality of their swords - selling crap as great products. So far Hanwei has been a great value to me in swords - yes their swords are more expensive than a lot of the ebayers you'll find but they're also more consistent and in many cases definitely better done. There IS a reason why Hanwei is the goliath it is in the sword industry. If they were as bad as you have made them out to be then many people who are students of the sword would be cursing the company instead of buying their products.
So then really, what's your beef with Hanwei?
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Post by frankthebunny on Jul 12, 2012 14:14:23 GMT
Ned, I wasn't really being too specific about anything really and just using a general "essence" of the thread from spots so I was not meaning to aim anything aggressively at the OP. sometimes it's easy for me to not be clear enough on the meaning of what I'm saying and it comes out in text differently than in my head but at the same time Marc has captured some of what my focus was probably on at the time. Thank you,
-Josh
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Jul 12, 2012 15:01:36 GMT
Bro, I totally just explained it. If you can't grasp that, then there's just too much blind fan rage. We obviously feel different, and that's fine. If you think anything I've posted ever on the forum is an "outright attack" on Hanwei still, I suggest going back and rereading whatever I typed that makes you think I'm attacking anything. Only this time do it out loud with a smile. I think you' have that internet text tone of reference set on the "hostility" setting. There is no beef with Hanwei. If you see attacks instead of jokes, turn the setting down a bit. Attacks are against the rules of this forum, I'm not a mean person, and there is no point in attacking anyone or anything on this forum.
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slav
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Post by slav on Jul 12, 2012 15:31:58 GMT
I can understand your preference for the little guy. That is very respectable and I most often am the same way. In fact I have owned many more DF and KC blades than I have Hanwei. I'm with ya.
But to paraphrase this by saying that one is just paying for the name is just wrong, and would be a totally different issue anyway. Maybe this is what some are seeing as 'hostility' because it is just unsupported rhetoric. Hanwei produces many different swords in many different price ranges. Look at the raptor. Plus because of their size, the QC and support is better than smaller brands.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 16:35:53 GMT
Hey Marc, This $100 sword being sold for $670 was from Ryansword, a distributor who was provided the same blades at one time from this particular supplier. According to Rob's research, Yao had at one time provided swords for Ryanswords but have now chosen to go their own way. It's no wonder that Ryansword had a bad reputation if they were charging $670 for the same sword that the supplier will retail directly for $100. That has no bearing on the value of the blade sold by the supplier at their own low cost. In fact, if anything this is only more reason for Rob to praise the value of this sword, now being sold at the supplier's very reasonable price when it was once marked up to $670 by the previous distributor. As far as the Nihonto comparison, I saw two comparisons made... one from the supplier themselves claiming them to be the best in China and compared themselves favorably to Hanwei, Cheness, or Dynasty Forge. The second comparison I saw was from Rob, saying the steel (assuming he's just talking about the blades and not the fittings) was as good as he's seen short of a 12th century Nihonto (which does not use pure modern steel and isn't all that comparable to a modern nihonto). Now I think both those claims are hyperbole, but neither of them made any claim to the blades being comparable to a modern Nihonto. Both claims say that these are the best blades you can find from China (and by the comparisons used we can assume to other Production Forges, not any individual smiths). As I said, that's probably a bit of hyperbole, but they are still being compared only to the higher end of Chinese production forges and nothing more. Perhaps more praise than they deserve in that category and perhaps not. That's not for me to decide, since I've never owned one of these swords. ----- As far as Kuya's claim of buying Hanwei for the name, I think this is along the same lines... He's not saying that Hanwei is junk, he's saying that other sellers can sell comparable blades for much cheaper. Hanwei is like the Ryansword of Dynasty Forge and Kris Cutlery. Similar quality (to Yao), but higher price. It's just like in my professional field of photography... there are two brands who stand financially over all others, Canon and Nikon. They make a very good camera, but the same level of body or lens costs hundreds or thousands of dollars more than comparable optics or cameras from other brands who have just as much experience, history, and legacy in cameras of old as they. The reason they're able to charge so much? Because they were the first to adapt their SLRs into DSLRs, while everybody else came late into digital system camera game (although Olympus and Fuji, who have incredible lineage in the camera field, are now the pioneers of the newer non-reflex systems, so Canon and Nikon's influence is now waning). The one thing you gain from buying the Canon or Nikon name is a much stronger Professional Support Network. Very much like what slav says you get from being Hanwei over smaller manufacturers, better QC and support. The question is, is that extra support worth the hundreds of dollars extra they charge along with their name? If all you're interested in is the quality of the blade and steel, then probably not... that is where I see both Kuya and Rob coming from, but they can correct me if I'm wrong.
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Marc Kaden Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Kaden Ridgeway on Jul 12, 2012 17:24:31 GMT
How do you figure that ? I mean I like to play devil's advocate as much as the next guy, but did you even click the link? The sword selling for $670 was not Ryan sword , it was Sowrdmaker688 ... this Yao guy that the thread is about.
Sorry ... whether they are hyperbole or not, they are claims that desrve to be challenged rather than stand. The inexperienced and uninitiated reading this thread a year from now on a google search result won't know such claims are hyperbole, especially if they stand unchallenged.
Ned... there is a reason this is calle "Sword Buyer's Guide"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 17:31:38 GMT
Sorry, I did misread that post and had not clicked on that link. As I mentioned, when I (casually) browsed their eBay store the most expensive katanas I had found were in the $300 range, using the same photos to describe the blade as posted in this thread. I would assume the difference in koshirae is probably where they differentiate the price points of their swords, rather than blade construction... Indeed, I would be interested in knowing what makes this katana worth $670 over the others he sells.
If anything though I would still rather hear from Rob, who is in contact with Yao, what the difference is between these swords at different price points, rather than immediately criticizing them and lumping them in with the same cheaper swords he sells.
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slav
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Post by slav on Jul 12, 2012 17:45:31 GMT
Fwiw, there are very few models of Hanwei that I would compare with, say, KC. And the ones that are close, are in the same price range anyway. But your hanwei is going to have better geometry and be in better out of box Polish for cutting. Honestly, same thing goes for dynasty forge when I compare my Musha to my Shinto (both around $250.) In fact the Shinto looks and acts more like a $500 sword. So, as an owner of many models from all companies in question, I don't see hanwei as being that inflated at all.
I used to hate hanwei and avoid them just because of how mainstream they are. I would find every excuse to buy anything but. However, over the years I have had the chance to own several hanwei models, and have always been impressed. As much as I hated to admit it. So I'm not your typical fanboy. I just truly do believe in their product and I believe the prices are generally fair. And trust me, that opinion did not come easy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 17:49:48 GMT
Yeah, I'm the same way Slav... I naturally gravitate away from the "mainstream" and towards the smaller players making a name for themselves. That's a bias as well, just like those who are biased towards a brand because of their name. We're all biased in one way or another. It's good to experience many different brands and learn what their relative strengths are, as you've done. I never find these things to be black-and-white... every brand has its reason for pricing the way they do, and a little insight into how the company does things goes a long way.
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Marc Kaden Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Kaden Ridgeway on Jul 12, 2012 17:52:14 GMT
Best I can tell the price is $670 because of gyaku kobuse lamination... which is why I compared it directly with a Ronin elite ($800) with soshu kitae lamination.
There is simply no comparison... look at the lines, the polish , the geometry...
So where is that $670? It's not in the cheap furniture... not in the blocky , improperly wrapped tsuka, not in the $5 habaki... the cheap seppa... the saya. The money is not in the blade either... the geometry is way below any comparably priced Hanwei, DF , Kensei , etc. Dang it... I mean a Huawei half the price looks like a masterpiece next to it.
Ned , I can appreciate your fairness , but I have owned lots of swords ... and probably a couple of hundred different katana ... and I'm sorry , but I don't need an explanation... one look at the sword is all I need .
The devil is in the details... and anyone that doesn't have good attention to detail when it comes to mounting, polish or geometry ... well I can't trust their attention to detail in the forging and the quench either...
For $60 that sword would be a decent buy ... at $670 its a steal... from the buyer.
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slav
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Post by slav on Jul 12, 2012 17:58:54 GMT
LOL
Ultimately, any company has to price their items high enough to get sustainable value out of prveying it, and low enough that customers will see enough acquired value to actually spend the money.
Monopolies obviously skew this, but currently this market is anything but. Competition spurs progress, and we have seen a ton of both over the last 5 years in this market. So we'll see what happens...
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slav
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Post by slav on Jul 12, 2012 18:14:08 GMT
PS: the best we can hope for is that this and other makers see threads like this, listen to their client's suggestions for improvement, and implement them. We've seen this slowly happen in many areas, and one of the goals of SBG is to help that process along. So Rob, you should be very happy that you started this thread, and with the direction(s) it has taken!
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Jul 12, 2012 18:39:01 GMT
Some thoughts on Hanwei and 'paying for the name'... Like Marc, I have owned hundreds of Katana over the past 6 years... from makers like Hanwei, Dynasty forge, Oni Forge/Kensei, Ronin Katana, Musashi, Masahiro, Valiant Armoury, and a few Ebay sellers and other guys. In addition to this... for a couple years I served as a shipper for an Oniline Sword Vendor... and this allowed me the chance to handle, take apart and examine many hundreds more Katana. Hanwei makes swords at ALL the price ranges except the sub 100. They have (or had, before the factory fire and price increases) swords in the 100-200 range, 200-300 range... and on up to the over 1k range. Some of the swords are great values in their price range... some are not. They have SO many different models you can't blanket cover them across the board... some are GREAT deals like the Bamboo Mat and the Raptor... some seem a bit inflated in cost for what you get like the Kami and some of the Tori models.
Hanwei swords and their value cover the whole range.
So to say you are paying more then you would from another maker just for the name... as a blanket statement... it is just, in my opinion, totally untrue. My opinion is formed by my experience... having handled almost every Katana Hanwei sells... and each of those swords not just one example... or even 5... but often between 10-30 different examples of each sword.
If anything... for a few years there... the Opposite is true. The fact that Hanwei *IS* a big name means they have a much larger production run and infrastructure, and much better logistics then almost any of their competitors. This allowed them in the past to offer swords of equal quality to others in the market at LESS of a cost then those competitors. The Raptor, for instance, was marketed specifically to compete with Cheness Katana... and offered a better sword with higher quality fittings for LESS then Cheness. The Hanwei Practical Katana were often sold under 200 dollars and were as good as many swords out there sold for 300.
I get the idea that people have of supporting the little guy... but that is a personal choice and does not make the big guys products any less a value.
Often I see people who dislike things just because they are popular... I find this a moronic way of thinking... it is every bit as stupid as liking something just BECAUSE it is popular. Either way you are allow public opinion to dictate your preference. *&^% that. I always have and always will make my choices based on informed examination.
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Marc Kaden Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Kaden Ridgeway on Jul 12, 2012 19:10:26 GMT
/\ /\THIS /\ /\
Well said Sean... and we agree on all points
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Jul 12, 2012 19:37:50 GMT
OK, you win. I'll go buy a Raptor (if they're still around) after having my 29-II done up. Afterward, be on the lookout for news in Northern California regarding someone doing this out of shame and regret.
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slav
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Post by slav on Jul 12, 2012 19:49:35 GMT
Instead, maybe just post a comparative review.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Jul 12, 2012 20:12:55 GMT
Of course, that'll happen before I end up on the news! It'll most likely be on the "Shobu" version, because the way the tip area on the "Unokobi" goes a "step up" from the side shots I've seen looks ugly.
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Post by ineffableone on Jul 12, 2012 23:01:43 GMT
I just want to drop in my personal felling on Hanwei. I think like Sean pointed out they have a wide range, and have a decent record of quality swords for different ranges. Some better than others.
Personally I have found very few of the Hanwei Japanese swords to my liking. I think mostly just pure aesthetics. They just don't have a look that I prefer. This doesn't however prevent me from seeing they are decent quality, except those few QC lemons that slip though. I even recommend them often enough to others, and often suggest beginners start with Hanwei due to their decent quality and prices and long standing in the community. They are a company one can be fairly sure your going to get a decent sword, and if you get a lemon, they will fix or replace it. This is a good deal for a newbie.
So while Hanwei katana aren't my cup of tea, I think they are a reasonable choice.
Now are you paying for the name? Maybe a little. As Sean mentioned they are one of the big guys on the block, and thus run in amounts etc way beyond others, which makes their costs lower. So what they are actually paying for a blade might have a bit higher profit margin for them than for a smaller guy selling a comparable sword quality and pricing. Why? Probably due to a certain level of standards in the sword industry of charging X price for Y quality. While people will try to sell lower than their competition some, they will also see how they loose profit if they lower too much past the current market value for a sword of that quality. So I would say Hanwei isn't really ripping people off selling low quality for high prices, you might be paying them a bit more than they could sell the swords at but not more than the sword is worth generally. Well and of course this mostly applies to before they lost their factory, that hit them hard and rebuilding that infrastructure will take awhile.
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Post by Rob Dorsey on Jul 13, 2012 1:17:55 GMT
And that Ned is my whole reason for starting this thread; to help out what I percieved to be a smaller forge trying harder. I deeply regret coming on strong early on. I'm new to this forum. Rob
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slav
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Post by slav on Jul 13, 2012 1:51:42 GMT
Then again, these Chinese eBay forges are selling direct. So, while economies of scale might (MIGHT!) cause somewhat of a higher overhead for them, the entire profit is theirs (less fees or whatever). Whereas, I would think that Hanwei sells most of their swords wholesale to retailers at a much lower margin (per piece). They have the advantage of high turnover volume.
In the end, both venues are able to purvey swords at generally comparable prices, for different reasons.
I
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