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Post by Rob Dorsey on Jul 11, 2012 2:44:24 GMT
All points well taken and I feel a little foolish but I am still impressed with Yao's blades. I bought an $875 Hanwei Tori XL on recomdation. First, it's heavy as an axe and has about as good balance also the hamon is weak and etched to boot. If I could get my money back, I would. Yao,s blades with their deep sori and stand-out hada just knock me out. Sorry if I sound like a shill. I just like to give credit where due. But, I'm learning how ignorant I am of the market. Tomorrow is my 65th birthday and I still have a lot to learn.
Best, Rob
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 11, 2012 3:04:24 GMT
Hi Rob and welcome to the forum. Dont sweat it man,youll learn more as you experience more.This forum has some good people with good info,a good place to start. I have to echo most everyones comments here about said sword. However you should be aware that the Hanwei XL series is really made for competition style cutting of tatami omote.The blade is "balanced" for cutting.There are many more quality offerings at, below,and of course above Yaos swords price.You just need to be aware of what you want vs whats available vs price.For what the Tori Xl is designed to do it is great at.But it is not a great all around sword,imho.Thing is the only way to really know what you want,is trial and error so to speak.You can read reviews,which are great,but truth is one mans gold nugget is another mans turd.Good luck in your search!
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Jul 11, 2012 3:13:50 GMT
Rob... you bought a Hanwei. You paid for the name with that $800.
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slav
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Post by slav on Jul 11, 2012 3:15:06 GMT
While Hanwei does etch over their hamon (God knows why!?), all of their DH blades have true hamon that can be seen if you polish off their stupid frosty etch. See my tutorial here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11918Once you have done this, I believe their blades still stand up as some of the most consistently high-quality blades in any given price range. Both in aesthetics and QC. It's not just a name.
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Post by johnwalter on Jul 11, 2012 12:55:09 GMT
This comment is so far off its not even funny.
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Post by Rob Dorsey on Jul 11, 2012 14:59:10 GMT
Slav,
Thanks for the comments. I'm now, and have always been, a dedicated do-it-yourself kind of guy and I've been sharpening my knife blades, edge tools and swords with belt sanders and water stone since teenage. I've already polished off the etching and it reveals a nice, coppery hamon with a slightly weak hamon-nei. It is however, quite visible in about any light situation so it quallifies as a "promenent" hamon in my book.
Getting more into polishing on these cheap blades and am enjoying it which means that I'm having at least some success since I tend to be a bit juvenile about such things and if I weren't having success, I would have stopped by now. Seriously My bucket list includes learning to forge and make Japanese blades and swords myself in my shop. The ready availability of inexpensive bench top forges and good steel makes it feasible and the polish is what I attempted first. I know the difficulty is high but that just draws me in more. I understand girls don't have this problem.
Thanks Again, Rob
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slav
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Post by slav on Jul 11, 2012 18:10:10 GMT
You sound like me. I've tried my hand at all that. As you can see in my signature, it actually tiurned into something for a while.
Check out my etching tutorial in the Japanese section if you want to bring your natural hamon back up even more.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jul 11, 2012 18:55:32 GMT
Well as I can't see the original post anymore, I can't say much of that current 60$ sword. However 60$ will not buy you a high quality sword but on some fortunate occasions, you can get a product that is worth the money spent on it. As for the eBay sellers in general, in my belief they rarely make the swords themselves. They order their stock from the big Longquan manufacturers. Jianchi supplies at least some of them: toplqdj.com/ as does Lh-dj: www.lh-dj.com/. Of course the seller will say they are his swords but the reality might not be so nice. It's good thing that you like your swords that were made by Yao. As it's most important that you personally like your own swords, we others are just some people online that will probably never see your swords or you in person. Just bear in mind that there are lots of folks with different attitudes towards collecting swords, so don't be offended if someone doesn't like your sword, even though this is forum for budget swords, some of us are bit snobbish (me included) . However I have the same thought as the majority. These swords do not seem much different from the generic Chinese made katana. I won't go into details, as they've been already picked pretty closely. Sure Yao and his workers are hard working people but they'll have to market their product at the same time. Production sword market is really rough and there is so much competition going on all the time. The beauty is always in the eye of the beholder but comparing these with authentic Japanese swords, well as a collector I strongly disagree . I would advice taking real caution if using belt sander to polish swords, it is very easy to ruin the geometry that way (unless you know exactly what you are doing). Happy 65th birthday mate, and claymores are lovely.
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Post by Rob Dorsey on Jul 11, 2012 22:00:04 GMT
Hello Jesssi,
Many thanks for your comments. Although I'm actually quite opinionated, I know when I am out of my water. But, to clothe myself in a homely, I know what I like and Yao's swords hit all my buttons. I have also established a relationship with him via email and I like what I hear. A smart, hardworking guy quite forthcoming with his particulars if asked a direct question.
As to comparing any Chinese replica of a NIhonto, I have been to a couple of sword shops in Tokyo and Kyoto and was able to look closely at several Nihonto blades and not that gunto crap but early iron. In my ignorant Americajin opinion, appreciating the Nihonto (as a $20 Large blade) is arcane in the extreme. And actually, the texture of the surface on a couple of big dollar Nihonto was, again to my plebeian eye, pitted and uneven in texture. The hada was plain and in general I did not have the breeding nor the sophistication to appreciate the nuance of the blade.
But, Yao's stuff I get. To a connoisseur it may seem crude or overdone but I understand it. I guess that despite education and world wide exposure to lots of nice things, I just like beer out of the bottle.
Best, Rob
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slav
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Post by slav on Jul 11, 2012 22:49:55 GMT
I'm curious, which shops did you visit in Tokyo? The good ones are pretty hard to find.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Jul 12, 2012 2:14:20 GMT
This comment is so far off its not even funny.[/quote]
Kuya has made it clear he has some sort of issue with Hanwei in other threads however he/she hasn't made it clear WHY he has an issue with Hanwei.
I do agree though that his comment about Hanwei is so far off its not even funny. I've handled a Tori XL and while I'm not a fan of the geometry (preferring a more traditional geometry myself) its a fine sword.
As for balance Rob, being an iaidoka you should understand that balance is only relevant to the user. Some prefer their balance further up the blade and others prefer it closer to the tsuba. For a cutting sword I prefer my katana to be balanced at least 5" up the blade. As an iaidoka you probably prefer a sword with a balance point closer to the tsuba for easier maneuvering.
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slav
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Post by slav on Jul 12, 2012 2:39:22 GMT
Any blade from the XL series is going to balance funny. I think Hanwei only came out with them to compete with the SGC cutters, or at least get a part of that market. But FWIW I never see James Williams using an XL in his cutting videos.
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Post by Jakeonthekob on Jul 12, 2012 3:03:34 GMT
Wow this has been a trip and a half of reading... XD
As far as aesthetics, I probably am the MOST guilty of learning about looks for traditional (ie "proper") geometries for katana. However as an amateur togi-shi and tsukamaki-shi I must say that the ebay vendor you shared with us Rob looks just like any other forge's work in that price range. You get things like improper ko-shinogi, sometimes excessive nie/nioi, and almost 99% of the time, poorly shaped/carved tsuka and badly placed yokote. But this does not mean that the blade quality itself is bad as far as heat treatment goes. It just means that they don't pay much attention to traditional shaping of the blade.
I can hold swords from China to a very high standard all day without much satisfaction but that is MY OWN opinion in the end. As much as my taste for katana lean a lot towards traditional styles, I always make breaks for swords based on price range, and sometimes forge if applicable. When all is said and done, if the sword holds water with you, then all is well and fine. Most of us here are just commenting, perhaps with some aggression, because we are trying to protect our fellow friends and forumites from getting a lemon. I would certainly hate for someone to get a lemon despite warnings from others.
As a cutter though, I think that I have to stress that your tastes in a sword's handling is yours alone. You can gain RELATIVE knowledge as far as how certain swords from certain vendors handle but only when you hold the actual sword in your hands, can you really say that you approve or not. I think this applies to every single person who has been and will post on this forum, as a back yard cutter or formally trained student.
The tastes and shapes and geometries of swords are as broad and open as the horizon. There's an exception to every rule, and though others may not necessarily agree with your viewpoint, we will at least respect your opinion while maintaining a great learning and friendly atmosphere.
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Post by Rob Dorsey on Jul 12, 2012 4:18:04 GMT
Gentlemen,
I sincerely hope that everyone understands that I really wish that I had not started this thread. It has upset precisely the people I was trying to help and drawn me barely veiled accusations of being a shill or worse, a troll. I appreciate the thoughtful comments and advice and I will try to act accordingly. I truly like all of my swords but my least favorite is the Hanwei Tori XL. You are correct that I look at the sword through the prism of Iaido and quick handling, "noisy" blades are my favorite. I also think they would be the best in a fight. I mean, that is what they are for, nest ce pas?
Rob
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Post by frankthebunny on Jul 12, 2012 5:05:09 GMT
Hey Rob, I wanted to apologize for my suspicions earlier, sorry brother, no offense meant. I understand where you are coming from and I along with many others here on this forum do appreciate lower level replica Japanese style swords. we do however try to look out for our fellow forumites and can be sometimes be overly protective when we think there might be someone pushing a sword that doesn't quite balance quality for money spent. this has been true for Hanwei as much as for Ryansword. I don't have any objections to your fondness for this particular brand of katana but I just feel that maybe your description sounded at times a little more like fact than opinion and could mislead someone new to collecting. this could also just be my misunderstanding or misconception of your statements. I think almost every sword has it's value but when I see a $100-$200 sword being sold for $500-$600 I feel like someone could wind up with a bad experience in the end. there is another familiar seller/brand out there whose name dare not be mentioned here......who has frankly been ripping off good people looking for a good sword. imo, those swords aren't necessarily worthless, just worth a lot less than what they're being sold for. look, in the end if you really think these swords are right up there with Nihonto well, you are entitled to your opinion but I'm just saying maybe think about the way you state this opinion so it's more clear to newcomers. or something like that....or not, you certainly don't have to take my advice, lol anyway, welcome to the forum and I hope you stick around after this rather rough entry -Josh ps - if you have time, it would be a great way to introduce yourself by sharing pics of your collection, there is a section and thread just for that somewhere around here. there are some pretty insane collections on there ....Mr. Swiger's, among many others.....that are great to ogle
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2012 6:17:22 GMT
I thought that was the whole point why Rob likes these swords, is because they're NOT being sold for an overpriced $500-$600 mark-up, but are rather sold for what the blades should be sold for - at a cost that makes them worthy of their value.
They're supposedly a damned good $100-$200 sword, not a $100-$200 sword sold for $500-$600. I briefly browsed through the store myself, and the highest prices I found were in the $300 range. They looked damned good for a $300 sword, and never pretended to be more expensive than that.
Did I miss something here? I never heard these swords compared with $10,000+ Japanese-forged Nihonto. I only read that they are good quality Chinese-forged katana... :?: Not replicas, or Japanese-wannabes... but swords forged by a Chinese smith who is honest and cares about the work he produces - as a Chinese forge. Why am I hearing something completely different than everybody else here?
By the way... how many of you guys criticizing the quality of these swords have actually bought and handled one? Rob has 5 of them. All I keep hearing is "these swords look like what you get from any other eBay seller at that price, full of this and that defect"... yet these defects aren't shown in the pictures, they are just assumptions based on the price point of the sword. I hardly think that's a fair criticism, myself. Perhaps the swords aren't all they're cracked up to be, but I don't think it's fair to argue the point of somebody who actually owns them (amongst other popular brands, as well), unless you have bought from this seller yourself and have your own personal experience to share. I have yet to hear somebody come on here and say, "I'm sorry Rob but I must disagree - I bought one of these swords myself and was sorely disappointed when I got it in my hands".
I'm sorry, but it just seems to me like some of you guys are forcing your own irrelevant expectations onto Rob's opinions - taking those opinions out of context from the discussion of an inexpensive katana from a small, little-known Chinese forge. Rob does have more expensive swords in his collection, like $850 Hanweis. I think the biggest part of the surprise was just how much value you can get at such a low price - that you can get a real sword without paying that $850 price tag. As one who never shops the internet but rather prefers to buy in person locally, I often receive the same reverse-sticker-shock too when I see what I can find on the web. That doesn't mean that I think the swords are better than something in a higher price bracket, but that I just realized I really don't need that higher price bracket to meet my basic needs.
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slav
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Post by slav on Jul 12, 2012 7:03:39 GMT
^ Good post.
To clear myself up: I stated that I do indeed think these swords look like many other similar eBay offerings that have been popping up. But I, myself, never stated that I felt they were overpriced or bound to have any defect beyond any normal scope. They merely look very similar, are priced very similar, and I would expect them to perform very similar, to the aforementioned type of swords; which--sure--puts them in the running if that's what you are looking for. Personally, the genre as a whole is just not my cup of tea, at any price.
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slav
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Post by slav on Jul 12, 2012 7:49:44 GMT
To explain the very last sentence of my post above: This genre of sword is not my cup of tea because--to my taste--it kinda misses the mark. I think katanas are generally judged by two primary criteria: functionality and aesthetics. Tradition could be a third, but I think it kinda goes with aesthetics.
Regarding functionality, I feel that it's hard to beat a good $200 TH monosteel blade like the Raptor, Musha, etc. The simple science of it makes this format of sword arguably the best choice on a purely functional level. If I'm going to be using the sword to cut, I don't really care about how pretty the hamon or hada is. In fact, I'd prefer not to have it. So already, you have the option of a sword that is both cheaper (or comparable $$) and stronger (most likely) than the average mid-grade sword from the genre talked about in this thread.
When it comes to aesthetics, I think most would agree that a nice, well done hamon of your preference is a key feature. Along with features like the kissaki, yokote, and hada (if folded), etc. In my opinion, the closer in appearance to Nihonto, the more pleasing; but not everyone agrees. There are plenty of mid-higher grade swords out there that just blow this genre out of the water as far as beauty and class, IMO. One that comes to mind is the Hanwei Bamboo Mat, a nice production sword. Another is my custom-made blade that I actually commissioned from one of these Chinese forges, that came out beautifully because they stuck with my spec rather than making it like they do all their standard offerings. And this blade was much less expensive and much prettier than the Bamboo Mat, and many others.
So the way I see it--if you want a durable blade and you want a pretty blade, buy one of each. Excellent examples can be found in both categories for very reasonable prices.
The genre of blade/forge that we are talking about in this thread attempts to do both at the same time. That is probably why so many forumites like them. But in my opinion they end up just being lukewarm in both categories; and thus as a whole. You end up with a sword that is not as pretty as it could be, and not as strong as it could be, and the illusion of getting it for a great monetary deal.
PS: Oh and on top of that, I would personally choose to replace the furniture on any one of these swords, so comparing fit and finish is a moot point for me; although--again--they all seem about the same anyway.
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Kuya
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Post by Kuya on Jul 12, 2012 9:50:40 GMT
I've explained before why I choose to not buy a Hanwei.
You're paying for a brand name. When shopping, I noticed that Hanwei swords cost more than comparable swords of other brands, despite being just about equal. I prefer to support quality smaller (not no-name tiny take a gamble, mind you) brands. It's just how I am. I don't buy Nike, I buy K-Swiss or Converse. I don't buy Toyota, I buy Mazda or Subaru. I don't buy Hanwei, I buy Dynasty Forge or Kris Cutlery (of if I could ever afford it in my life, Fabled Blades). My opinions, my money, my choice. Your opinions, your money, your choice.
Maybe it's a negative part of me that needs to be fixed, but I like to root for the underdog. I like to support the companies that are a bit different. Even non-sword enthusiasts own Hanwei swords. If my mom bought a sword, it'd probably end up being a Hanwei. They are the Toyota of Katanas, most car enthusiasts stay away from Toyotas; who wants to drive something their friend's grandmother drives?
Hanwei doesn't need my money, they're the huge mega Goliath of the industry. I want to support the smaller businesses and brands that are just as good, if not better, but just don't have the insane amount of resources and marketing Hanwei does. I want to see the other brands survive, so when I see someone that might overpay for a Hanwei, I'll try to point out that there are other comparable swords by other brands. Is it wrong for me to do that?
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Marc Kaden Ridgeway
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Awful lot of leaving and joining going on here for me .... And gosh I can't recall doing a bit of i
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Post by Marc Kaden Ridgeway on Jul 12, 2012 11:25:17 GMT
@ Ned
If you'll Read my post above , and the post I quoted you will clearly see these swords being compared to nihonto ... You'll also see a $100 sword selling for $670.
This is the only reason I jumped into this thread. Yes their is an obligation to refute erroneous claims and protect fellow sword buyers. I have also championed budget swords in an enthusiastic manner ... But they sold for far less than $670.
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