|
Post by william m on May 27, 2012 23:11:40 GMT
Hi all, I have read quite a bit about the rawing training swords and I think that I will buy one or two longswords. I am not currently doing any wma but I have done in the past and it is not past the relms of possibility that I won't do so again! haha Anyways I was mostly interested in them as I think they would be a lot safer for practicing solo drills than if I was using a sharp. Plus they have the added benifit of that I can leave them around the house without fear of accidents. The single handed sword is very appealing but I have yet to find a wma class near me that teaches sword and buckler with all of them only teaching longsword. I have noticed that if you combine the singlehanded sword with the extra-long pommel, you get a bastard sword! Very interesting indeed.. hmmmmmm time to buy three swords? What I have found slightly surprising is that no online retailers that I can find, sell the longsword with the disc pommel option. I am wondering if there is a reason as to why only the scent stopper longsword is available as a complete sword? Anyways I am asking to see if anybody on this forum has any first hand experiences with these swords? I have heard plenty about the prototypes and the journey they have had to get to the final product, but I do want to hear from people who have been using them for a while or have the more recent swords. Good or bad experiences I want to hear about them. Cheers!
|
|
|
Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on May 27, 2012 23:42:55 GMT
We are using exclusively those in class, so I'm quite comfortable with the. The verdict: nowhere close to steel but the next best thing. Sparring with those is VERY safe, nothing needed except lacrosse gloves and fencing mask.
For partner drills... well, the feel, especially in the bind is horrible. You can forget any winding and binding exercises, they just don't behave like the real thing. Most other drills where no highly sensitive feeling is necessary are no problem though.
In the end, they're cheap and much better than the only other alternative, wood. The safe sparring is a huge plus as protective equipment is very expensive and with a tight budget one is better off buying a few H/T LS blunts for drills, etc and use the Rawlings for sparring.
There's no doubt that steel swords and complete equipment remains the best way of training though.
|
|
TomK
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,377
|
Post by TomK on May 30, 2012 2:50:32 GMT
yes I have personal experience with these: see my opponent's sword bend all the way over mine and form a U. yeah, that's what happens when these meet under moderate force. we weren't going anywhere near full power of speed. the tournament I was in got called off half way through because everyone was so frustrated with the swords that no one was having any fun and nothing was working right. we were using the original version of these I think and I understand that there have been improvements made since then but I'd do some serious checking before I laid down my cash on those. the ones I used were horrible, we would have been better served by broomsticks, splinters and all. another guy who attended the tournament brought some of these: www.woodenswords.com/WMA/synthet ... ypeIII.htm which I got to use afterwards and they were very good, the best non-steel trainers I've used as far as realistic action goes and they didn't even seem to hit all that hard. I used the PHA version not the Penti but I think they are pretty much the same.
|
|
|
Post by Ceebs on May 30, 2012 3:43:28 GMT
That's a pity. At least wood is rigid enough to have some semblance of feeling in the bind (albeit dull).
|
|
SeanF
Member
Posts: 1,293
|
Post by SeanF on May 30, 2012 5:48:48 GMT
My WMA school uses the Purple Heart Type III (that Tom linked) exclusively for drilling, and steel for sparring. There are a few Rawlings kicking around the school and everyone avoids them like the plauge. Just keep in mind that the the Type III is much, much stiffer than the Rawlings, aside from the edge being wider I wouldn't consider it any safer than steel. Just much lower maintenance.
The classic and Penti versions handle the exact same, it is really just a personal preference. (I like the classic better.)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2012 9:10:32 GMT
Has anyone sparred with practical steel blades against one of the synthetic swords? If so how did they stand, was there any damage to the plastic one?
|
|
|
Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on May 30, 2012 9:33:57 GMT
It's not that much the lacking stiffness, at least the new generation we have are stiff enough, it's more the thick edges and lack of "feel" you have for the opponent's blade. They slide down easily, very hard to control a blade with them. To be honest, I think wood isn't better in that at all, at least the wooden swords I've seen. You just need thin steel edges to really understand the concept of feeling the pressure and reacting in the right moment.
We will still continue using these, there just is nothing better for safe but full speed sparring if you can only afford minimum equipment. The fact that only light Lacrosse gloves and fencing masks are needed makes free fights in some ways more realistic than when using steel blunts and heavy armor (gambeson, protectors for all joints, heavy gloves, etc). You still really don't want to get hit and suidicial attacks are rare but at the same time real injuries are almost impossible. The lighter weight and lacking performance in sophisticated techniques are of course a big negative but we all know that winding and such rarely happens in free fights anyway.
|
|
|
Post by Ceebs on May 30, 2012 10:09:14 GMT
This is probably the biggest turn off for me regarding these swords. Even though winding may be rare (at least in the sense that we never ever see it in tournaments) the vast majority of the German system revolves around the bind in some way, shape or form. Without a proper bind (proper in that you can feel pressure of some kind) they sound pretty useless.
Even so, and ironically considering what I just said, I'm keen to try them out for myself. I've had my eye on them for a long while now.
|
|
TomK
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,377
|
Post by TomK on May 31, 2012 5:40:06 GMT
we are doing something very wrong if we are not winding at all in fights. I include myself in this as I don't wind enough, but it is the very CORE of the system, if it weren't going to happen in real fights why would the masters have spent so much time focusing on it. the truth of this, in my opinion, is that then as now the instinct people have is to strike and dance but the man who can train himself to step in without fear, go blade to blade and then know how to wind and wrestle his way into a winning position is going to be VERY effective in the fight. consequently, in my opinion, any training tool that makes the bind harder or impossible is useless. the SCA is a very nice organization and the place to be if you want to strike only. they can teach you to be a better striker than the WMA/HEMA/ARMA schools we have at the moment. my point is that isn't how the master say to fight. we need to train right so we can do it right.
some exceptions have to be made so people don't die or get seriously hurt, but we don't have to give up the core of the system. there is a happy middle ground we just have to find it and stand firmly upon it.
|
|
|
Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on May 31, 2012 8:54:55 GMT
I agree, winding and the whole working from the bind is extremely important in German longsword. Hence I said it's a big negative that the Rawlings don't exactly excel at this (I might have been a bit too harsh on them, I just gave it a go again and it is possible to feel pressure and wind, it's just not very nice). I'd love to hear what you guys think regarding winding with the Rawlings, if you have similar problems with easily sliding blades, etc or if you do just fine and I simply do it wrong.
I absolutely agree that most fighters, even senior instructors with lots of experience mostly choose to "strike and dance" as you put it. I think winding only gets effective when you're really, REALLY good at it and getting there, that's a long road. Until then, you're usually better off not attempting to wind in sparring if you intend to win. If you want to learn, you definitively should though. I believe one can win most fights without winding just by being faster but of course, those who seek to reconstruct historical technique, can't go without.
|
|
Razor
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,883
|
Post by Razor on Jun 1, 2012 3:12:10 GMT
I have the more resent Rawlings single handed sword. They are the basket hilted ones. They are a lot stiffer them the ones Tom was using in his tournament, but still have whip to them.
But the biggest problem is the handle. The grip is wide at the top of the handle and when hitting hard the sword can twist in your hand. Making the flat hit the edge of the other sword, causing the sword to whip.
With training swords you need to keep them the same. Wood vs. wood, steel vs. steel, and synthetic vs synthetics. But sometimes you can get away with synthetics vs. wood. The only time I have done that was at a Boarders class, where the hawk and dagger/knife was synthetics and the cutlass was wood.
|
|
|
Post by John P on Jun 1, 2012 5:05:51 GMT
I am not a fan of the Rawlings line. They work well as a sword like object that folks can hold on to for learning guards and words and for doing low speed drills. For non-steel I like the Purpleheart Type III www.woodenswords.com/WMA/synthet ... ypeIII.htm Steel is the best option but it does require more safety equipment. One upside we have found that we have found that people behave more safely with steel than synthetics. People tend to swing for the fences since they don't think of a plastic sword as a dangerous thing. All of our longsword injuries have been from non-steel swords.
|
|
|
Post by Neil G. on Jun 5, 2012 15:04:37 GMT
At my school we have 4 of the Purple Heart wasters linked by TomK and a few of the early Rawlings wasters floating around and I can say that as a whole we all definitely prefer the Purple Heart Wasters. The Rawlings ones we have are just too soft and often times will seemingly fold over when struck hard... 'specially when we're mixing PHA and Rawlings swords. There have been a few times where people have tried hanging parries with the Rawlings only to have the PHA swords collapse the blades Rawlings blade and pass through and successfully land a strike.
Another thing I do not like about the Rawlings swords is that on ours the grip is just a rubber sleeve pulled over the tang of the sword, which makes the grip feel too squishy and uncertain.
That being said, I think the Rawlings are a lot safter for sparring because of this. I would feel comfortable going at it pretty hard with one of those wearing only a standard fencing jacket, lightly padded gloves and a fencing mask, whereas with my PHA sparring blades I prefer something a bit more substantial - heavy lacrosse gloves, heavy fencing jacket with integrated shoulder & forearm guards...
|
|