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Post by stickem on May 10, 2012 15:02:46 GMT
I was looking at some tamahagane swords from Dynasty Forge and Huanuo recently: www.dynastyforge.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=44www.katana-samurai-sword.com/huanuofredchentamahaganeswords-c-111_167_168.htmlWhile I realize they come from a Chinese forge replicating Japanese methods and materials, I am wondering what people's experience has been with tamahagane swords from these manufacturers :?: I realize a real Japanese-made tamahagane is out of my price range, but what do the blades coming out of this forge look & feel like as fare as being reasonable replications of the tamahagane forging process?These Chinese versions from DF & Huanuo are out of my price range as well, really... but just wondering if they are considered something worth saving up for & investigating further & investing in... Thank you as always for dropping some knowledge on me
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Post by randomnobody on May 11, 2012 1:01:12 GMT
I can't speak from any hands-on experience (though a PM to an unnamed member might change that, if I ever get a paycheck big enough) with Chinese forges' tamahagane, but from the pictures I've seen of all the major manufacturers, all I can think is they all look so...coarse. So rough, untamed. Just...grainy. In a bad way. It probably doesn't help their cause when most of them introduce an acid bath or similar procedure as part of their "polish" process...but it's just hard to look at, in most cases. Granted, the antique wak I have is in very bad polish, but even still, one can see a very fine grain; not the same turbulent mess on a lot of Chinese models. Overall, it's the same stuff, though. I'm not sure I'd consider any such sword as an investment-grade piece, unless it's from a well-established forge or part of a limited line as offered by such, but even then the value isn't likely to grow in the same way as a Japanese blade would, I'm afraid. You may want to throw a word out to our friend "dadaochen" who showed us these recently: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10906 (Okay, you forced it out of me; I need to write Ricky, myself...been avoiding him since Friday when my paycheck was smaller than I'd hoped. :oops: ) This line looks fairly promising, if only from an aesthetic view, but having discussed these with Ricky a bit I feel they're a fairly promising intro to a tamahagane blade at a great price. Just don't go bashing your refrigerator with one, and work on form first if you must cut with it; from what he tells us, these are performance-geared, meaning they're meant to take on mats, with a super-thin profile and narrow, flat-ground edge bevels. Not your hard target stuff, but probably fantastic for kata work and occasional tatami, one at a time. Not to mention, they're not half bad to look at.
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Post by randomnobody on May 12, 2012 19:56:45 GMT
Whoops, meant to say "flatter," as compared to what one would expect from a traditional blade, or in contrast to some of the "monsters" out there these days.
Sorry, Ricky. :oops:
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Post by stickem on May 13, 2012 0:44:35 GMT
Random ~ Hey thanks for the head's up on another source for tamahagane. For clarification, I'm not really interested in the sword as an investment per se, meaning if I buy one it wouldn't be with the idea of re-selling it for more $ later. If the thing gains value, that's outstanding! That said, I really look at my house and IRA and so on with my investment glasses on. Swords are more of an artistic outlet for me, in that I get to play with 'em & customize 'em and use them to sharpen my mind and intention in meditation, and so on... so I look at 'em with a different pair of lenses on. I don't wanna get ripped off (obviously), but I don't plan to auction a tamahagane as part of a business deal neither. I appreciate your take on Chinese tamahagane being a bit wild in general instead of restrained. While I have always had an appreciation for Damascus swords and folded blades, as of late I have become more appreciative of very subtle grains e.g., those found in Bugei's Peace Sword. Maybe it is because I've been using swords as an object of meditation lately... perhaps if the practicing is working and actually taming my monkey mind to some extent; then it is natural to start valuing the small waves in well-done tamahagane and the fine hada and hamon of a Peace Sword... or maybe I'm just gettin' old and like less drama. Dunno :lol: Anyway, I found a site that describes the process of forging tamahagane in words a non-metallurgist like myself can understand. For those of you who are interested, it is here: www.jsme.or.jp/tsd/ICBTT/conference02/TatsuoINOUE.htmlRicky ~ I wish you good luck in this endeavor, Ricky! Sounds like a really cool thing to do... like the sort of thing I might do if I didn't have a day job and financial responsibilities I can't really walk away from at the moment. I'll definitely keep your upcoming tamahagane in mind and look at it if/when I decide to purchase one of these blades in the future. Especially if it is a ballpark I can afford. If you can put a good product out there, then we'll all be winners... both you on the forging end, and us on the receiving end The Peanut Gallery ~ Since I have been looking at swords specifically made at the forge that supplies Dynasty Forge and Huanuo, my original question specific to folks who have experience with blades from that source remains: Hellooooo, is there anybody out there... who has one they can share some knowledge and experience about?
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2012 0:46:35 GMT
I'm actually picking one of these up from Ricky along with the RK-1 Katana as well. The Tamagane blade will be for my collection and the RK-1 will be the one I use for cutting. I cannot wait to get them. I've always wanted a sword made from Tamagane since I was a young kid so it's just cool to finally be able to own one.
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Post by Vue on May 13, 2012 5:10:32 GMT
FYI Cold Steel and Dynasty forge products are made by Huanuo, I'm not aware of anyone supplying to Huanuo as they are the manufacturer.
Also just remember the thing about Tamagahane is without a traditional style polish the hada/gain will not be vissible and as we all know polishing can be quite expensive.
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Post by stickem on May 13, 2012 6:55:54 GMT
Vue ~
I knew of the relationship between Cold Steel, Dynasty Forge, and Huanuo, and that they all receive their blades and from the same forge. Some of their furniture looks the same as well. However, I did not realize Huanuo is this mother forge. Is it correct they all are associated with Fred Chen... and isn't he the brother of Hanwei's Paul Chen :?
Is it true these manufacturers use Hadori style polishing with finger stones to accentuate the hada of their tamagahane? Hopefully though the makers are Chinese, they are well-versed in the traditional Japanese style of forging and can make a reasonably accurate replication of this process. Probably no way I'll ever be able to afford a real Japanese tamagahane, so maybe making do with a Chinese version will do...
Anyway, I do own a couple of Cold Steel blades ... my favorite being a Gurkha khukri that I've used to cut down trees when no saw was on hand, it and remains unscathed. That one is definitely a good sword that is very hard to break, so perhaps the other stuff coming from the Huanuo forge is excellent as well...
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Post by Vue on May 13, 2012 13:17:48 GMT
To my understanding Fred Chen of Huanuo supplies both Cold steel and Dynasty Forge and Yes indeed he is Paul Chen 'of Hanwei' brother; not to be confused with Paul Chen of 'Cheness' Yes you're correct that Kesho/Hadori or Sashikomi is the finishing polish with finger stones just to bring out the activities of the steel, it serve's no other purpose other than being aesthetically pleasing; you can also do the same to other types of steel and not just limited to Tamagahane. Yes indeed a few Chinese forges can do Kesho/Hadori just fine but not so much Sashikomi style yet 'they could have but I've never seen a good example just yet'. The only forge I can think of that might be able to do a good Sashikomi is properly the Zheng Wu forge but it's very expensive even more so then if I was to send my blade to Japan to a 'qualified traditionally trained' Togishi...... FWIW it takes about 10 years to apprentice to become a Togishi :shock: and I don't even want to imagine how long it'll take to master the art :? I do have a Tamagahane blade from a Chinese forge 'Kaneie Sword Arts' and it does have a full traditional Kesho style polish and IMO it looks the part but that's about it really . There are however many different levels of Togishi just like there are different levels of Swordsmiths, I personally hold the works by Western Tosgishi to be of more higher in quality 'even if they're not traditionally trained' people like Keith Larman, Chris Osborne, Rick Barrett, Anthony Dicristofano, Ted Tenolds, Josiah Boomershine, David Hofhine just to mention a few......I'm sure there are more. It's not that much of a difference between the Chinese and Japanese Tamagahane IMO, there might be no difference at all in the raw material. The only difference that I could see is the processing of the material and how each Swordsmith works with the material to create a blade. If you do decide to get a Chinese Tamagahane blade, I would recommend Kaneie over Huanuo for the polishing and Koshirae, Huanuo polishing seems to mask over the actual hamon and create something that is very stencilled looking as it's too consistent. It may work for Sugaha but looks very odd with any other types of hamon iMO. If I was in your shoes I would just save up for now and keep an eye out for a Nihonto, around 2k could get you a nicely mounted Japanese Wakizashi ' made of Tamagahane of course' and with some historical pedigree, for the same price you would have to fork out for an good Chinese Tamagahane.....Food for thought.
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Post by randomnobody on May 13, 2012 18:28:55 GMT
That last bit by Vue is probably the most common reason so few of us have any Chinese tamahagane; for that price you can pick up a fairly good Japanese antique, and in some cases are already well on your way to a newly-made sword, so most just don't see it as worth it.
They're fine swords, I'm sure, but in this range is where people get really finicky.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on May 13, 2012 20:19:22 GMT
Plus, if you're not too picky about the sword being un-signed, I had a look at Aoi Art with a friend and found several katana (one with koshiare and shirasaya, dated muromachi I think) for under $4k with no major flaws. So it's sorta like with the higher price windlass models int he upper $200-$300.. For a little bit more you can save and get VA or Atrim's that are almost without exception far above the Windlass counterparts.
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Post by stickem on May 15, 2012 19:04:09 GMT
Vue ~
Thanks for sharing the knowledge. I think you have gotten to the heart of the matter, which is, for the same ballpark of buying a new tamahagane from a Chinese forge (say >$2500), it is possible to get an antique nihonto.
I checked with a few antique dealers based in Japan, and by email found them to be of the same opinion and to have similar offerings for similar price ranges.
+1 for you for sharing the knowledge & pointing me in the right direction, V!
If/when I save up this type of money, I'll go Japanese. Though if I find something for < $1000 from a Chinese forge which appears to be good tamahagane (e.g., perhaps Ricky's forge), I might try this lower-budget option in the meantime... Thanks again!
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Post by stickem on May 16, 2012 13:30:31 GMT
Ok, so here's what I did. I found one of the Huanuo Tiger/Bamboo Tama Silver Katanas used for 1/3 the MSRP. The blade appears to be unused for cutting and in excellent shape. However, this one would probably fall in the scratch'n'dent category rather than new because some of the fittings are loose. From the seller's description, the tsuka maki will have to be re-wrapped to fix this.
I also ordered one of Ricky's Tiger Tama with Bo-hi, which is of somewhat similar theme and appearance to the Huanuo, and also his Quicksilver No-hi demo blade at cost. Thanks for offering at such a reasonable price, Ricky!
If I can get hold of someone's professional camera 'round here, will take pics for everyone to see the two new acquisitions.
While I appreciate everyone's guidance on this subject and realize two Chinese tamas does not a single Japanese tama make...
Because I was able to get 3 swords for half the price of the cheapest Japanese Tama I could find, it seemed like a good place to start. One day we'll all be wealthy and authentic nihonto will rain from the sky... wait a minute... just got that visual image... maybe not such a good thing to wish for :shock:
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Post by Adrian Jordan on May 16, 2012 13:42:02 GMT
Sounds like a really sweet deal. I can't wait to see your new pieces.
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Post by stickem on May 16, 2012 15:03:25 GMT
A ~
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
At heart, it appears I am a cheapskate. So, if I can find something scratch'n'dent that needs a little fixing, it wins out over paying full price every time :lol: These Chinese versions may not be authentic, but the price is right for what they offer.
One day, after much practice and I have developed some skills, I will turn my attention towards restoring an authentic antique Japanese nihonto... but at this point, I am crawling and walking and still yet learning to fly. Probably better to work on some less expensive projects before jumping into a big one...
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Post by Adrian Jordan on May 16, 2012 19:51:50 GMT
Preaching to the Choir, my friend. Can't afford to not be a cheapskate these days!
Both Huanuo and Ricky make good products, so I still think that you came out well on top with this expenditure.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on May 16, 2012 20:43:19 GMT
Sorry for the late chime in, at first I thought this was only regarding Chinese made swords, but as authentic Japanese swords were included I might add few lines.
You have to know where to look for cheap nihonto. Many dealers/sellers have these lesser quality items for affordable prices. Some go fast and some stay long. You can get decent wakizashi or tanto in c. 800-1100$ range. There are katana in c.1500-2000$ range. I believe it's needless to say that these are not high end items but decent swords for decent prices.
Hopefully you will enjoy your 2 new swords. I believe both will be good swords.
PS. A katana was added to Aoi 15th of May at 110k Yen (c.1400$). I have a feeling it will be a fast sale but you'll never know for sure.
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Post by stickem on May 18, 2012 21:21:14 GMT
Ok, just received Huanuo silver bamboo/tiger katana. It looks very much like this one: www.dynastyforge.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=394&category_id=27&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=21&vmcchk=1&Itemid=21The fittings are of the same silver composition and exactly the same design as pictured, and the saya is the same sunburst red. The fittings (fuchi/kashira/tsuba) are all loose, but the seller described them as being such, so no worries. It will probably take a rewrap of the tsuka-ito to get them all back in place. However, the blade does not resemble the wavy gravy damascus-style mess they show on this DF website. The hada on the sword I actually received is much more subtle and difficult to see. It actually doesn't appear to have much of a grain at all at first glance. This may be because the seller describes the sword as being of Huanuo origin, instead of Dyanasty Forge. Since both have the same mother forge and have the same source for fittings, I have no idea which one it came through or whether this really matters :? The blade I received looks like this instead (remember to click on thumbnails for a bigger view):Since I have no hands-on experience with tamahagane, I will take it to my local expert who works in mokume gane to get his take on the authenticity of the steel and silver. I got it for 1/3 the DF MSRP, so if it is an authentic tamahagane with authentic silver fittings, then all will be good. Your thoughts on the authenticity of the blade are also appreciated. In fact, this is the reason I came to you all in the 1st place, as you all collectively have much more experience than I, who just fell off the turnip truck, but am no dummy...
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Post by Adrian Jordan on May 18, 2012 22:25:35 GMT
That pop-out-at-you grain you see on most production pieces are due to the forge giving the blade an acid etch after their final polish. Add some fantastic lighting in the vendors glamor shots and you have an almost unrealistic image. The reason you sometimes see this effect on authentic Nihonto is due to a very high-level polish. Many swords would have a subtle hada, like the one you received, if it did not get that acid etching or if the previous owner had used a polishing paste to remove the etch.
I'm not actually a fan of the obnoxious hada that many lower price forges employ, and much more prefer a tight, subtle grain. I personally don't have an educated enough eye to tell you if that is a tamahagane blade as opposed to a folded blade of different steel, but I agree that the one you got doesn't look much like the one in the picture. But as I said, there are several reasons that this could be so and still be the real thing, so don't despair!
I can't wait to see the katana as well.
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Post by stickem on May 19, 2012 0:30:32 GMT
AJ ~ Thanks for dropping the knowledge as always While I enjoy damascus steel in certain applications - for instance, the jian I use to practice t'ai chi looks like this: www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.321330784550548.100450.155291791154449&type=3in this case, I wasn't looking for a damascus blade with big grains. I was looking for a very subtle hada rather than what they show on the DF website, which looks more like damascus type folding to me. So no worries 'bout this. Happy 'bout the subtlety! I guess the :?: in the back of my mind is, since I got the sword 2nd hand, and all the fittings are loose, what are the chances the blade has been changed out for something cheaper? Right, loose fittings could be a sign someone took the sword apart... and while the sword was in pieces, different pieces could be added or subtracted... like a blade made of different steel... you get my line of thinking. Not calling anyone a scoundrel or anything of the sort, just looking out for myself because this is a big investment to my wallet's size. Be aware I am a skeptic at heart (in addition to being a cheapskate ) so I tend to look at things through a skeptical lens, right? I'm not cynical though, thinking everyone is a bad person or out to get me. What I mean is I don't really believe something is what it is advertised to be unless I know how to tell the difference, or someone I place my trust in knows how to tell the difference between delusion and reality based on direct observation. I appreciate your honesty, Adrian, about the limits of your ability to eyeball it over the web. Much better than guesstimation. Anyway, there is a fellow named Ted Hendrickson who made some mokume gane wedding rings for us. I plan to visit next week with the sword to get his opinion. If anyone knows folding metal, it's Ted. That's all he does all day, every day. Here is some background on what Ted does: www.goldworks-nc.com/mokume.htmBy the way, Ted is HUGE, like 6'5" huge. The first time I shook his hand over the counter at his shop, I wasn't rooted and the guy almost pulled me over the counter by accident. Crazy meat hooks with crazy strength in his hands from chiseling and pounding and forging, crazy talent, and the guy actually likes me, so we talk shop about samurai stuff when I get the chance to stop by. So if any of you are looking for any type of handmade jewelry, go to Ted. I recommend the guy without reservation, even if you have to do it long distance. The man is talented and honest.Anyone else out there (Ricky?) feel confident they can ID this blade from just the pics I posted?
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Post by Adrian Jordan on May 19, 2012 1:01:07 GMT
Are there any markings on the tang? If it is signed by the forge then there are several people here who could translate it and make an ID.
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