Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 22:34:40 GMT
Hi everyone... I'm a newbie to this forum and I've been researching and reading up on sub-$300 Katanas all week. I've watched as many youtube vids and read up on as much as I can dig up.
I've narrowed down my search to some Katanas that I'm interested in and I can sure use your help and appreciate your insight in the matter.
I'm looking to get my first Katana for backyard cutting on mostly light to medium targets with the ability for hard targets (which I'd rarely do).
For the most part, I think I would prefer the "spring steel" type of blade for forgiveness and durability (9120, 5120, and 1060 spring). Most of my options are thoroughly hardened (TH) blades for durability as well. I'd like something as light a possible for faster performance and balance without sacrificing too much in durability. Perhaps something with a lower P.O.B. if that helps?
NOTE: I am not formally trained but will exercise the utmost safety precautions when using a 'live blade.' Of course this wouldn't take the place of formal training, but I am in good shape with good hand-eye coordination so I don't foresee any issues in handling a Katana for light/medium cutting. Perhaps down the road I will enroll in a school for iaido training or something.
Here are my options:
1. Dynasty Forge (DF) Musha Class w/ Bo-Hi -- (1060 spring steel) 2. Ronin Dojo Pro (model 1 or 4) -- (1060 TH steel, no bo-hi option, and not spring steel) 3. Hanwei Raptor (Shinogi Zukuri or Unokubi Zukuri) -- (5160 steel)
Note2: I've considered the Kris Cutlery Kats but I don't really like the style of the Tsuka, Tsuba, and the Saya. I've also considered the Cheness Tenchi, but I'm not thrilled with the hit or miss QC issues that I've been reading about.
Note3: In terms of the DF Musha (as with the CS Warriors), I'm wondering how they can call their steel "spring steel" when it's also listed as 1060? I thought when you add in any other components to steel such as chromium or silicon to give it that bendable spring quality, it becomes an alloy like 5160 or 9260? I'd love to be further enlightened on the subject.
Note4: Lastly, the more I look at the Hanwei Raptors, the more I like them. I wasn't too excited about the birds motif, but it's grown on me a bit. Even as bizarre as how the Unokubi Zukuri geometry looks with the hump on the Kissaki and the half-length bo-hi groove, the unique styling of the blade is intriguing. I'm wondering if these features, especially with the partial length bo-hi provides for a better weight reduction and lowered P.O.B. closer to the Tsuba? This sounds like this would enable the Unokubi to perform faster and not feel as blade-tip heavy than the Shinogi? However, I do understand since the Shinogi has no-hi, this will have superior strength if I'm not mistaken. Has anyone experienced these two versions of the Raptor that can tell me which is better for handling? I appreciate a strong and durable blade (which a no-hi would offer) but in my case, I think handling trumps more without sacrificing too much in durability (thus my desire for spring steels). If that all makes sense? LOL
Okay, I think that sums it up... please help and rain your knowledge my way... thanks! :mrgreen:
|
|
|
Post by Adrian Jordan on Apr 9, 2012 22:39:11 GMT
I'd go with either the Dojo Pro or the DF Musha. Don't let the fact that the Dojo Pro is not a spring steel fool you, it is immensely strong. Both it and the DF have good geometry and fairly crisp lines. I believe that the Dojo Pro has superior fittings, and is the better overall package.
The Raptor is a good choice as well. It has good overall fit and finish and a good blade. Personally, I'd go with one of the above.
Hope this helps.
|
|
ecovolo
Senior Forumite
Retired Moderator
Posts: 2,074
|
Post by ecovolo on Apr 9, 2012 22:41:31 GMT
I own a Ronin Katana Dojo Pro Model 6. Of the ones you've listed, in my opinion it's the most Japanese-looking weapon you can get for your buck: The tsuba is modeled after an antique, the tsuka-ito is silk, and the saya has buffalo horn fittings.
--Edward
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 22:52:14 GMT
Thanks for the suggestion... I was really leaning towards the Ronin as well but aside from the blade not being Spring Steel, I've read in one review that it feels pretty hefty and unwieldy. That's why I'm sort of interested in a bo-hi option which Ronin doesn't offer. But given that the stats sheet shows the Ronin of having a lower POB, I'm not quite sure if that's enough to really negate the need for a Bo-Hi? However, I REALLY like the Ronin's looks and the quality that's in the Saya and fittings.
The DF Musha's Bo-Hi options is what's attracting me. I'm not sure whether I like the Musashi or Turbulent Wave theme. I've also read to be mindful of the gen 1 versus the gen 2 of Mushas in how the older ones are single pegged and the Musahi theme is a single ring (Higo) versus the more tradition Musahi double ring. Also, I think there has been some inconsitancy with the finish of the blade too btwn them. I've contacted Kult of Athena and I'm waiting on their backorder list to be notified once they're in though as an option.
|
|
|
Post by Adrian Jordan on Apr 9, 2012 23:34:29 GMT
The Ronin is well balanced. It is not unwieldy at all. The older DF had a somewhat shoddy tsuka, but it has been reported that they've fixed that. The Ronin and DF both have superb heat treatments, so don't worry about the steels toughness. Both are made from 1060, and both are Through Hardened. The Ronin is more expensive, but the materials used are great, and they are designed to be more Japanese in their appearance. Both are great, so you can go with the one you like more without worry.
|
|
|
Post by stickem on Apr 15, 2012 10:10:57 GMT
Brian whose team shall remain nameless ~ I am a Lifelong Rabid Raiders Fan (since SB of '76) but I'll try to put aside our differences and be of some assistance since I just went through this same process, and found this forum's suggestions very helpful I went the scratch'n'dent route and got a Ronin Dojo Pro. It came with a small Y-shaped crack on the surface of the saya at the bottom 1/3rd, which doesn't effect the functionality at all. Although Dojo models 1 & 4 are not available as scratch'n'dents ( was after model 1 but settled for #2), you can find 'em on the cheap here: www.roninkatana.com/ronin-katana-scratch-and-dent.htmlI also got a scratch'n'dent Hanwei Raptor Shinogi Zukuri from Kult of Athena for $200, so saved loads of loot. The mouth of the saya is FUBARed and it will take some surgery on my part to get it functional. You may consider this a deal breaker; I look at it as a challenge. I too wasn't all that thrilled with the eagle tsuba on the Raptor and so on... but decided that I was after practicality rather than aesthetics for a beginning cutter anyway. Regardless, KoA has a Hanwei Practical Pro Elite Katana for $300 in the same condition as my Raptor; that is, perfect blade, crummy saya mouth. The $125 you'd save off their list price might make it worth your while and does make it fit your $300 katana criterion... I know it isn't on your original list, but the Practical Katana is a higher end sword than the Raptor, is aesthetically more pleasing IMO, and is designed to cut through most anything, which sounds like your purpose, as it is mine... Here's the listing: kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SH6009KPGHope that helps... you may or may not want to go the scratch'n'dent way like I did, depending on whether you're serious about putting them to use or being able to display them prominently is more important to you. Either way, I've found it is a less expensive way to learn from my mistakes - of which I make plenty - and also learn a lot about the way swords are designed from having to take the extra step of learning to repair them. BTW, I went to school with Philip Rivers at NCSU, so it's all good Not one of those stab'em-in-the-parking-lot Raiders fans... or am I? :? Yours on the path, ~ Stick'em Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by DavidW on Apr 15, 2012 10:42:20 GMT
The Raptor, from what I've heard, has an obnoxiously large "axe handle" tsuka, and the wrapping is suede, which is not typical for a katana (I think).
The Ronin Dojo is what I'd get. It has superior fittings (buffalo horn parts, expensive silk ito, historical tsuba) and because they're made on a much smaller production scale than Hanwei or Dynasty Forge, there should be little to no QC problems.
The DF is also great from what I've seen. QC is great as well, and their Musha series is well known for the mirror polish they come with.
The Ronin may not be spring steel, but the fact that it's made in the extra-thick dotanuki style makes it just as tough as the DF, IMO.
It all comes down to your preferences: Do you want a slightly cheaper katana with mirror polish (DF), or a more traditional/historically accurate katana with superior fittings (Ronin).
Or if you really like the Raptor motif, the Moroha Zukuri version of it is on sale at Kult of Athena for only $150. But I'd expect it'll be less aesthetically pleasing/more unwieldy than the DF or Ronin. Possibly QC issue as well, but KoA has great customer service.
|
|
|
Post by johnwalter on Apr 16, 2012 17:13:17 GMT
Ive used all the raptors and own three.Great hard target cutters.Nicely balanced with good edges and not really thick blades The moro ha handles very nicely actually.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2012 6:03:59 GMT
Thanks everyone for your insight and advice! stickem... Love the comments on the Chargers. I'm from LA and I've always been surrounded by those that choose to align themselves with the black and silver. That's actually one of the main reasons I started being an SD fan...wanted to go against the grain I guess... LOL Anyway, I thought about the scratch n' dent discounted stuff. If I were a collector and planning to have many swords, then I think I wouldn't mind grabbing one of those up to just trash stuff up with. However, I'm looking to just pick one nice Katana to use just enough to be comfortable with it and for the most part, it will remain nicely oiled up on a stand until one of those SHTF moments or if I have the sudden itch to go cut things up in the yard. But for the most part, it will be babied and a prized piece among my other random things I collect. DavidW... I recall reading one of your threads here on SBG when I first started researching. It does sound like I'm in the same boat as you once were. I "think" I've narrowed it down to the DF and the Ronin Katanas (although in the back of my mind the 5160 spring steels on the Raptors and Kris Cutlery still attracted me, just not the stock looks). I'm just not sure whether I want the Spring Steel w/ Bo-Hi on the DF Musha or the solid Ronin Dojo Pro that everyone seems to favor. If I can have the perfect Kat, it would be the hybrid of these two. I'll wait till KOA gets their stock in of DF Mushas and make a decision at that point. The blade on the DF is slightly longer than the Ronin... I know this is a matter of personal preference, but not sure how that factors in since I've never owned a Kat. One other general question... does anyone know why DF Mushas are listed as 1060 spring steel? I thought if you add in silicon or chromium as they do with 5160 and 9260, then it become an alloy and not 1060 any more. I"m a bit confused about this and can't find anything online that really explains this.
|
|
|
Post by DavidW on Apr 20, 2012 17:43:00 GMT
Yeah, but in that thread, I ended up with a Cheness Oniyuri cause it was on sale at the S&D section of KoA at $50 off. DF and Ronin are both really good from what I know, and I calculated the shipping. You're in LA right? Shipping according to KoA is $12, so your total order is apparently $242.68. Personally, I'd go for the DF and get a cheap $25 item as well. Maybe a windlass or cold steel spearhead so you can do a little spear building project, or perhaps a nice EDC pocketknife, or even a semi-decent set of shuriken/kunai for casual throwing fun.
But that's just me, I like to get as many different things as possible that are still good quality. Also, you say the sword will be mostly for display, so the mirror polish of the DF fits that nicely. The bo-hi on it is also good, because it makes a nice "Woosh"/whistling noise to tell you when your swings are properly aligned. Though there is a large amount of debate over whether a bo-hi weakens a sword or not, I believe they say that a bo-hi blade will require more force in the swing when cutting heavier targets, and will be SLIGHTLY weaker than a same blade with no hi.
That said, I think I will revise my opinion and recommend the DF.
|
|
|
Post by Student of Sword on Apr 20, 2012 18:01:16 GMT
Brian,
The term "spring steel" confused many people. It has little to do with the classification of the steel itself. It is the final tempering of the steel -- spring tempered. It refers to the process, not the composition. Steel that has its final temper so that it can spring back to true are "spring steels."
Spring steel are used mostly in vehicle leaf springs. 5160 and 9260 are most commonly used today. But in the past plain carbon steel such as 1075 or even 1095 had been used in leaf springs.
|
|
|
Post by Krelian on Apr 20, 2012 18:45:51 GMT
I've noticed that too and here is my theory on that (I say theory because I'm not an expert on either metallurgy or sword advertising). I too remember hearing somewhere that an alloy needs to contain silicon to be considered a "spring steel". But then I've also heard of knives made from leaf springs from old cars and trucks (plain 1050 or 1060 carbon steel I believe) being referred to as "spring steel" since the steel came from springs. Lastly, I think some vendors and manufacturers refer to a blade being thorough hardened as being "spring steel" or "spring tempered". So anyway, those are my observations on why it seems the term "spring steel" is used commonly on different blades...
P.S.: SoS, again you read my mind and beat me to the post (as I composed this off and on over the period of an hour on my phone).
|
|
|
Post by stickem on Apr 21, 2012 0:50:14 GMT
First off, Brian who's team shall remain nameless, please mark this on your calendar: 7:15, Monday night, September 10th, 2012 and I would suggest stocking up on a box of Kleenex tissue, a bottle of Two Fingers tequila, and someone's shoulder to blubber on for the occasion, because there will be quite the mess to clean up right 'round your house at this specific locus in time and space... In the meantime, you might start with this link and build from there: www.sword-manufacturers-guide.com/sword-steels.htmlHere's a quote which probably sums up the answer to what you are asking: I can personally attest to the "Nepalese Khurki blades" as being as indestructible as anything can be as far a swords go. I own several of these types of swords. Though I haven't tried it personally, you could probably use one of these to chop up a '53 Chevy Bel Air into scrap a la Jack "Hacksaw" Reynolds, though your arm would fall off before the sword breaks: www.govolsxtra.com/news/2006/sep/14/hacksaw-was-145cut-above-the-other-guys146/Himalayan Imports is a FANTASTIC forger of spring steel khukuris I recommend without hesitation. If you are interested in such things, they also make katanas, though I have no personal experience with anything but their khukuris nor any idea whether they would meet your <$300 criterion (there may be an entry level model, ask Bill). www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/146671-Everest-Katana-2-test-and-review?s=&highlight=reviewwww.himalayan-imports.com/sword.htmlwww.himalayan-imports.com/kami.htmlAs others have indicated previously, "spring" steel is definitely not a term exclusive to sword making. I have a feeling "spring" steel is a term adapted to describe the way a sword blade bounces instead of breaking when it hits a dense object with some force. I am not certain there is an actual criterion that includes excludes any particular sword from being labeled with the term "spring" steel. The best definition I can come up with for the term is rather generic " A type of hardened steel that has both hardness and yield strength." Here's a PDF of "spring" steel from Admiral, much of it intended for making car parts: www.admiralsteel.com/pdf/catalog.pdfAnd here is one describing its physical properties: www.matbase.com/material/ferrous-metals/spring-steel/and here are two with much technical talk: www.springsteelstrip.com/spring_steel_strip.phpwww.springsteelstrip.com/hardened_tempered_steel_strip.phpWhile I have an undergrad in Chemistry, I do not have any experience specifically in the lab working with metals. I can try to explain some of the chemistry stuff to you if you have specific ?s in that area, but an actual metalsmith from an actual forge is much more qualified than I to describe the process of its making and shaping and so on in a practical sense... Attachments:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2012 8:24:57 GMT
Just a quick update on this thread... After all my research and asking questions, I settled on a Dynasty Forge Musha w/ Bo-Hi in Turbulent Wave theme. I picked it up for a discounted price from KOA from the 'Factory Blemished' link on this particular DF model's webpage. The only 'blemish', if you can even call it that, was a small crack on the mouth of the saya. It bothered me at first because I expected a blemish to be a mark or chip in the paint or something, but not an actual crack! Despite a crack being there, I decided that it wasn't really that bad because the katana sits firmly in place and doesn't even fall out when held upside down in the saya. Also, un-sheathing the katana has just the right amount of resistance IMO. Therefore, this wasn't a deal-breaker for me because the actual katana is flawless and everything seems well constructed. I'll have to do a more thorough inspection when I get the time to dismantle it and check the tsuka core. I haven't had time to do any backyard cutting but I will pretty soon. However, I did do a few swings and got to experience the tachi-kaze sound due to the bo-hi... boy that was great! Can't wait to try some targets. Anyway, I'm very much a novice in the world of swords (and its nomenclature) and therefore I don't want to even attempt to butcher an 'actual review'... but when I get the time later this week (or the next), I'll just throw up some initial impressions (from a layman's perspective of course) and load up a bunch of pictures (aka: sword porn...isn't that what it's called?) for anyone that was in my shoes wanting to see more of the DF Musha class. Here are some pics in the meantime.... And that crack in the saya... BTW, anyone have any suggestions if whether I should leave it alone or fill that crack in with some sort of glue or something?
|
|
Kuya
Registered
Posts: 1,396
|
Post by Kuya on Jul 16, 2012 10:00:20 GMT
As I posted in my Dynasty Forge O-Katana review, for the price range of the Musha series, the uniformity and quality of the blade's polish and kissaki counter polish is great. And yeah, the way they shape their bo-hi makes such a beautiful sound.
Congratulations on your purchase!
|
|
|
Post by DavidW on Jul 16, 2012 17:37:05 GMT
Beautiful, hows the sharpness on it? Paper cutting sharp?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2012 18:19:06 GMT
I would definitely fix that! Not with glue though (although glue could be added to the process, I really don't know if that's beneficial or not). Since this is at the koiguchi, there are metal bands or buffalo horn pieces which are made specifically to hold the koiguchi together. Also, you can wrap the saya in rattan or samegawa (ray skin). The wrap would probably be your best bet as they it will look very fashionable and cover a larger area. Your crack seems to go down quite long towards the kurikata, so the band or horn may not be enough. Here's an example (random google sample): Look under "Metal Bands for Saya": www.japanese-swords.com/pages/kojiri.htmOr better yet, here's some examples of rattan wrap, found from a thread right on this forum: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=10578(excuse me for re-posting your photos, adrian.jordan) Or a rayskin wrap, as posted in the old archived SBG forum... Even a full tutorial on how to do it is included: sbgswordforum.proboards.com/inde ... hread=5708
|
|