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Post by zentesukenVII on Mar 27, 2012 19:55:51 GMT
I figured, there was not anything really to use as a substitute back then.
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Post by Derzis on Mar 27, 2012 22:33:57 GMT
And no warrior conquered japan with their european swords either
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2012 2:07:35 GMT
Well, for a bit of history, the ancient Japanese, being a group of small, remote, geographically isolates islands, only ever encountered the Koreans and the Mongols. They lost the first battle to the Mongols, the Japanese got butchered because they fought ritualised one-on-one horseback duels in warfare and had no idea about modern military techniques of massed formation (which, incidentally the ancient Greeks were employing thousands of years beforehand, and the ancient Romans after them, then almost everyone else!), but the Mongols did not realise they won, retreated back to their ships, and got torn apart by a freak storm at sea. The Japanese knew that only divine intervention would have saved them, so they named the storm a "Kami Kaze" or "divine wind". Many years later, when the Mogols tried to invade again, the "divine winds" strangely struck the Mongol fleets and once again saved Japan. They were sure the heavens were protecting them, for surely their armies couldn't as the first encounter proved. The Mongol empire was one of, if not the largest empire that the world had ever seen, and spanned more than half the world. If it wasn't for Japan's remote and inaccessible location geographically, such a small and primitive nation would have been easy pickings, and the Mongol hordes would have overrun it effortlessly. Basically, they were saved by freak weather occurrences, and not on account of their military ability. The only other example I can think of where Japanese actually crossed swords with another nation is during the battle of the great wall where Japanes katana met Chinese dadao, see this summary from sevenstarstrading.com/site/hanwei/dadao/: "...Dadao used by the Chinese military during the Japanese invasion of China in the pre-WWII era and celebrates a Chinese victory at the battle of the Great Wall, in which the Dadao and the Katana were actually pitted against each other... During the winter of 1933, the Chinese Army was falling back, being pushed south out of Manchuria by the Japanese army. In order to buy the main army time to retreat and regroup, the Dadao Dui (Big Knife Unit) was ordered to ordered to protect a 30 mile segment of Great Wall at Xifengkou, a strategic stronghold, and 1 of 3 important passes. The Dadao Dui, formerly known as the 29th Army Corp, was under the command of Capt. Song Zheyuan. When Japanese Guangdong Army attacked, the out numbered, out gunned 29th dug in to meet them, with Capt. Song writing. “I’d rather be a dead ghost than surrender.” After heavy loses on March 9, the 29th decided that a sneak night time attack was their best strategy. At midnight, two groups of soldiers, totaling 500 men, took up their dadao with the orders, “Only forward, no retreat, until you die.” With both sides exhausted from the day’s fighting, the Japanese were not expecting an attack and were caught off guard as the 500 attacked from two directions. Caught totally off guard, the Chinese killed many hundreds of Japanese in their sleep, capturing more than 10 machine guns & setting fire to supply vehicles. But this first of Chinese victories in the war did not come without its costs. Of the 500 men of the Dadao Dui who attacked that night, only about 30 survived. Their sacrifice saved their comrades and clearly demonstrated the Dadao to be a very effective, close quarter weapon when facing katana and as a tool of ambush, even in an age of modern warfare (where most rifles being used were bolt actions). Indeed, the dadao was such an effective weapon that special steel collars were issued to Japanese frontline troops." In this instance 500 dadao wielding Chinese, outnumbered by Japanese troops, managed to plough through the Japanese forces in hand to hand (blade to blade) combat. One other example, which would have involved bladed weapon conflict, is General Qi Jiguang's battles defending China against the invading Japanese pirates from 1559-1565, in which he was victorious. Japan during the Sengoku Period was immersed completely in small-scale regional civil wars and unrest. Many defeated samurai along with peasants turned to piracy, where they located themselves on small islands near the Chinese coastline, where they launched their raids, lootings and mass killings. The first battle was in 1559, where Qi Jiguang's army defeated the Japanese pirates in the Taizhou Prefecture, and afterone month of fighting, inflicted over 5,000 casualties on the Japanese. In 1562, Qi Jiguang army of 6,000 elite troops clashed against more than 10,000 pirates in the province of Fujian, and after three months of fighting, wiped out the three major Japanese strongholds there, at Hengyu, Lindunand Niutian. When Qi Jiguang returned to Zhejiang to regather his troops, the Japanese pirates took advantage of the situation to invade Fujian once again, and also took Xinghua in the process. In 1563, Qi Jiguang took an army of 10,000 into Fujian and took back Xinghua from the pirates. Qi Jiguang's army fought a series of victorious battles over the next year and freed Fujian of pirates. In 1565, the final major battke was fought on the island of Nan'ao, where Qi Jiguang and his comrade Yu Dayou joined forces to defeat the remaining pirates. So there you have it, a little bit of history about Japan!
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Post by Don Boogie on Mar 28, 2012 13:18:00 GMT
Now that i did not know
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Mar 28, 2012 15:38:55 GMT
The Mongol invasions had one problem to begin with, first was in October 1274 and second was in August 1281. Both are in the worst typhoon period in that area.
Some books I've read state that both sides suffered losses at first encounter. The mongols didn't want to spend a night on foreign unknown terrain, fearing attacks during the night. They decided to spend the night in their ships and the typhoon striked, they suffered losses and the commander decided to retreat. Japanese had used strategies and tactics beforehand but the problem was that none of the generals had been involved in wars as last major fights had been 50 years ago.
Second invasion had much larger invading force but japanese were better prepared this time. Japanese even though they have never been masters of sea warfare did nightly attacks on mongol fleets. The typhoon hit on August 22. when the southern fleet was going to invade on land with 100000 men, this was reported to drown c.30000 men. This event caused half of mongol attack force to retreat and other half to continue with bad ending. The remaining forces (several thousands) stayed in the island of Takashima had to face the samurai, japanese killed all the mongols and koreans but they let the chinese live. I believe one main thing that caused so many ships to sunk is the fact that Kublai Khan ordered river boats to be built instead of ships that would have withstood the perils of the high seas.
I might look bit through red and white glasses but there were fighting going on in both encounters. Mongols were on of the most fearsome fighting powers in the history and Mongol Empire of the largest empires but not every invasion they made ended up being successful.
Toyotomi Hideyoshi started his Korean invasion in 1592. Hideyoshi's main intention was to conquer China but the bad blood between him and korean rulers made him to invade Korea instead of walking through it. With 160000 men they headed out in May. They soon conquered Seoul and in June they conquerd Pyongyang. Their intention was to hold this position until moving forward onto China. Korean groundforces were no match but their naval skills/strategies were much better and they caused big gaps on japanese reinforcements and supplies. The fighting went on for several years, and in 1597 Hideyoshi sent 140000 more men to Korea. Hideyoshi died in 1598 and by his last requests armies were pulled out from Korea. This seven year war was devastating to Korea but also hurt japanese as the inside of country was boiling and ready to explode.
And that nightly attack in 1933 was just a shock tactic, nightly attacks are good shock tactic and they are usually very successful as they rely on surprise, cover of the night and sometimes knowledge of the terrain.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2012 3:44:46 GMT
True, the Mongols didn't win every encounter, but they won the wars, soundly, hence the reason they conquered half the world. The Japanese example is just a case of unfortunate circumstances, such a rare chance natural phenomenon, where the natural elements repelled the Mongols, not the Japanese, which is why the Japanese deemed it miraculous, and hence named it as such.
Japan's wars with Korea, what can I say, check out the genome mapping project, the Japanese, Koreans and Tibetans stem from the same genetic branch, so this suggests that one original racial group split into three, and in technical terms, they were fighting their own people, or at best, their 'cousins'. Of course, Japan, would like to think they are a genetically very different race...
Yes, the battle of the great wall was "shock warfare", the Germans had a name for that tactic too, a "blitzkrieg", though they did it differently of course! Regardless of the tactic, when an strongly outnumbered and poorly equipped force heads into an enemy camp armed with broadswords - and lets not forget this is WWII we're talking about, the Japanese had all the moderm military weaponry, machine guns, handguns, rifles, bayonets, grenades like we have today, and they were defeated soundly by the Chinese. This wasn't like shooting fish in a barrel by any means. If you think of 500 men entering a camp, they will surprise a few of the enemy, but the rest of them will soon wake up and mount considerable resistance. lots of close quarters combat too, yes, the Japanese gunto katanas would have been out against Chinese dadao blades, hence the historical significance of this battle.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Mar 29, 2012 5:23:06 GMT
Well chinese were greatly involved in 1592-1598 Korean war. After japanese forces had conquered big korean cities, Ming dynasty chinese forces and korean guerilla troops were the forces japanese fought against. Chinese took over Pyongyang in 1593 and japanese troops that were there fleed to Seoul. War was pretty much in standstill, chinese forces controlling northern parts of Korea and japanese forces southern parts.
The reason I raised this war up on the paper is the fact that here the japanese weaponry faced korean and chinese weaponry. Korean Joseon Dynasty weaponry seems to be little bit of mix between chinese and japanese weaponry, I don't really know much about korean weapons. Ming dynasty had really wide variety of weaponry, which I believe swords were only small part of. During this war the weaponry, armours and tactics of both sides worked well.
People have always fought their neighbours, and people don't want to be mixed to their neighbouring nations. I don't go any further into that matter as that would stray away from the thread.
I don't know much about medieval warfare but I believe cover of the night could have been used a lot. Just have to point out that japanese used nightly attacks on mongol ships during the 2nd mongol invasion.
Mongols were great warrior-nation but as a nation expands bigger and bigger controlling it gets harder. And going overseas is always hard, mongols had to retreat from Jawa also. Islands had proven to be one big annoyance for Kublai Khan.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2012 6:01:22 GMT
Likewise, I don't know anything about Korean weaponry. As you rightly stated, the sword would not have been the main weapons in these wars, I'm guessing it was polearms, though the Mongols had advanced weapons such as explosives, the Japanese weapons were quite ineffective. Here's an extract from a previous post of mine on another thread viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9417&hilit=tachi&start=10#p118342: By the Kamakura Era (1184-1333) the blades became thicker and wider, with a short and wide kissaki (ikubi). The deepest point of curvature moved from above the tang to the waist of the blade. In the late Kamakura era, two Mongol invasions (1274 and 1281) by Kublai Khan made the Japanese realised the weaknesses of the tachi blade - if the point broke it could not be repaired, and it was not the best weapon against the light armour of massed cavalry of Mongols. So, the blade became narrower, which was more effective in striking light armour, and the point became medium-sized (chu-kissaki) to allow repair in case of damage.
In the Nanpokucho Era (1334-1393), the focus switched to foot soldiers, and this flagged the rise of long two handed sword infantry sword, the odachi or nodachi, with blades over a meter long, as long as 120-150 cm. Around the Early Muromachi Era (1394-1466), the dominance of foot soldiers led to the emergence of shorter swords, as these were lighter and faster to draw. The deepest point of curvature of the blade moved forward and the blade narrowed towards the point. Late in this period most of the swords were uchigatana around 70cm (28") long. It should be evident that the Japanese weaponry and tactics were technically inadequate for modern warfare during the Mongol encounters, and they realised this and abandoned the design of the tachi for the odachi or nodachi, and moved more towards infantry (foot soldiers) rather than cavalry. For those interested, he'res a more deatiled account of the first incident, taken from the Web Chronology Project ( www.thenagain.info/webchron/chin ... japan.html ): "The first Mongol invasion of Japan occurred in 1274. In November, an armada of nearly 900 vessels containing more than 40,000 troops was dispatched from Korea. The armada demolished Tsushima and Iki islands and arrived at Hakata Bay on November 18th. On the following day, the troops landed on the bay and fought the Japanese defense on land. The Japanese were no match for the Mongol's cavalry tactics and weaponry including their small explosive bombs, which the Japanese had never encountered before. The Japanese defense had no choice but to retreat to a fortress near Dazaifu. That night, when the Mongols retired to their ships, a severe storm hit the island, sinking 200 ships and killing over 13,000 Mongol soldiers. As a result, the remaining armada retreated back to Korea, ending in an unsuccessful invasion. The Japanese referred to this miraculous wind as the Kamikaze (divine wind), and believe that their island was protected by the gods. Although the country was saved by the storm, the invasion proved that the Japanese were no match against the Mongol on land or sea. As a result, the Japanese strengthened their army in fear of another invasion, and constructed a stone wall, 20km long, along the coast of Hakata Bay. Kublai Khan, on the other hand, never gave up on Japan and renewed his demands of Japan in 1275 through envoys sent to Japan." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bibliography: Hoops, Richard, "The Divine Wind" in Earthwatch Radio <http://seagrant.wisc.edu/communications/earthwatch/archive/1992/earthwatch101308.html> 8 July 1992. Hori, Kyotsu, "Mongol Invasion of Japan," Kodansha Encyclopedia of Japan (Tokyo: Kodansha, 1983) pp. 243-244. Rossabi, Morris, "Kublai Khan," Encyclopedia of Asian History (New York: Macmillan Publishers, 1988) pp. 365-367. Teshima, Ikuro, "Christians Among Mongol Invaders" in The Ancient Refugees from Religion Persecution in Japan <http://www.keikyo.com/books/hada/Christians_Among.html> 20 Nov. 1998.
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Post by Fifteenthirty on Apr 2, 2012 14:43:33 GMT
I like gladiuses (all types), Viking swords, small swords, big and small medieval swords, tulwars, scimitars, shamshirs, patas, keris, qamas, kindjals, wakizashi, katanas, nodachi, tachi, dao, rapiers, sideswords, backswords, greatswords, zweihanders, baselards, estocs (kinda), katzbalgers, sabres, cutlasses, hangers, schiavonas...
but hot chicks are better.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2012 15:05:05 GMT
Now who can argue with that! :lol:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2012 16:27:55 GMT
I do not think it is representative of the entire line as I have purchased an Early medieval sword from another vendor which is near perfect. Prior to that it was the only reference point I had on Hanwei. I am unhappy with a vendor who on their website says "We also inspect each and every item before it goes out" and clearly did not inspect the one I received. I even contacted Mr. Pirece himself to verify my concerns were valid. That sword sucked and I don't see where it is your concern if I complain about it "all the damn time".
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Post by lamebmx on Apr 2, 2012 16:45:00 GMT
One point I have seen missing, is not just the right weapon for the fight, but the right weapon for the fighter. Although the massive blade of a claymore is fearsome, seeing a 5'2" samurai standing there weilding it just is not as scary as a the same samurai with katana. Not to mention having proper training in the weapon. One of the main reasons I like the katana so much, is they have a lot of great general points. I think it is about the perfect in-between of all points of combat I know of. It may not be the best for any single fight, but usable against them all. And its curved, and we all like curves!
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Apr 2, 2012 21:22:13 GMT
Yeah, versatility is always a nice thing... however, I wouldn't go with a katana regarding that. I think a XVIII bastard sword is as good as it gets if you want an all-rounder. Devastating at cut and thrust, good reach while still very handy and usable with one hand, you got two edges and guard/pommel to mutilate your enemies Oh and I guess due to the convex edges it's kinda curved as well :lol: But I can understand going for a katana as well. Beautiful weapon. As you said, it mostly comes down to the warrior itself, whatever he chooses is the best sword for him.
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Post by WEWolf on Apr 2, 2012 21:33:21 GMT
Ever since I got my first dao, I would lean heavily towards the dao. True they are somewhat blade heavy, but I'm six four and over 300 pounds so it feels light to me, and all that fearsome cleaving power would be a mighty comfort in a fight. So, I'd favor the longsword over the katana, but I think I'd take my dao over either.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Apr 2, 2012 21:44:37 GMT
While I myself do like to swing a power hitter sometimes, from sparring I have made the experience that lighter and fast swords are a much surer way to win. You might not chop his arm off right away but you don't need to. I'd much rather hit the other guy multiple times comparably lightly than worrying about opening myself up too much when swinging a heavier sword or most importantly just being generally out-maneuvered by his faster weapon. But then, if the Dao feels light to you and you think you're fast enough with it, it's all good. I just know that a tiny guy like me can't do that :lol: I suppose again it comes down to the user's strengths, what he's most comfortable with.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2012 5:22:59 GMT
It's probably important to look at the fighters using these weapons too. Despite all the Japanese BS mythologizing of their history, their warriors were pint sized little guys around 5' 3" and shorter. The Portuguese soldier described them as looking like "small children with sharp swords" and the Chinese called the Japanese pirates "Wokou" meaning "dwarf pirates" - they also referred to Japan as the "dwarf nation". This says a lot about the size of the samurai warriors. Bigger, stronger fighters such as the Nordic and European ones would be able to wield larger and more powerful swords just as fast!
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Post by SeanF on Apr 3, 2012 5:45:07 GMT
Though due to the nature of the katana's design it doesn't facilitate getting much longer. The moment of inertia increases exponentially as the sword gets longer and since the katana has both less distal and profile taper than a Euro it doesn't quite 'scale' the same way in terms of length.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2012 8:38:42 GMT
Exactly, the ridiculously long katana were votives or offerings for the temples and were purely of ceremonial function, while the huge Euro swords such as the great swords of war and claymores were fully functional, were handled by warriors strong enough to use them, and were used in real combat! T
he European ideal of a warrior/knight was said to have been based on the ancient Greek ideal, broad shoulders, muscular frame, narrow waist, athletic and at an age where they have the benefit of youthful strength, where the Japanese ideal was a thick waisted older man, with their weight being predominately on the lower half of their bodies. A completely different approach, hence completely different weapons.
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Post by Derzis on Apr 4, 2012 22:01:20 GMT
Ancient greek was around 1.5m (5') height. It's enough to visit old houses at the base of Acropolis to understand why IDEAL is the word you must take in consideration when you start your own mythology.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Apr 4, 2012 23:20:44 GMT
Blackthorn you really don't like japanese do you? Just partly kidding...
Human height is funny thing, and usually people seem to notice even the small differences, I personally don't.
People round here (Finland, Sweden, Norway) tend to be fairly tall folk, now days average for young men seem to be c.180cm+, so that's about 5'11" for you who use the different measurements. And what I've read in various sources the average in the middle ages could have been around 170cm, 5'7". I personally don't think that 10cm difference in persons height is that big.
Modern day Japanese men average 170cm, 5'7". In the old days average samurai would have probably been c. 160cm or 5'3".
So it's c. 10cm height difference in favour of Europeans, I wouldn't consider that difference to be very significant. I strongly believe that Chinese, Japanese and Koreans all have been within fairly similar height back in the day.
I don't know where you came up with that ideal bulky short samurai stereotype? Asian people have always been very lean, I believe much of it is part to their healthy diet. I think the athletic bodytype that is usually depicted in greek art has been actually ideal bodytype in many cultures.
And not all odachi were temple offerings, many of them were actually used in battles, there are equally large and unwieldy examples in European swords that were never intended to use in battles, just in parades and special events...
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