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Post by Grindhouse on Mar 10, 2012 23:35:05 GMT
Right now i have a Hanwei Bamboo MAT, that i dont even use, cause i find it too beautiful, and i'm afraid to chip it. (Saw a picture of someone who chipped his bamboo mat on a plastic bottle, and now im paranoid.) I also have a cheap, 75$ kill bill katana (1060). For the price i paid, i find the balde actually very very durable. I literally abused it, cutting pieces of wood and hard plastic. The blade never chipped. Pretty impressive for the price. Now i want a new sword Hanwei raptor shinogi zukuri - 5160 (not really considering it, i don't like the suede handle) Cheness Tenchi - 9260 Ronin Dojo Pro - 1060 VA Savoy/Bastard sword - 1060 (the medieval style blade i like the most) Which one is the most durable ? By ''durable'' i mean that it would keep its edge sharp and it would not tend to chip easily. I will probably use it on piece of woods, again, even though i should not :/ but want do you want, it's fun... And if a cheap 75$ Katana can handle that, a good 400$ sword should too ? I'm leaning toward the VA Savoy cause i'd like a medival sword instead of another Katana... Thx for recommendations.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Mar 10, 2012 23:43:03 GMT
Well, I'd say that the Raptor and Dojo Pro have the toughest blades. A Tenchi that has a good treatment is just as tough, but unfortunately there are some issues with quality control and your chances of getting a poor one are greater than with the other two. I've seen some issues with the tsuka on the Raptor, but most production katana lines have tsuka issues. Of the three, I'd personally opt for the Ronin Dojo Pro as it combines great fittings, great finish and a well made, tough blade.
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Greg
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Post by Greg on Mar 10, 2012 23:50:49 GMT
I can't comment on any of the above blades, but if a 75$ sword handles all of your abuse, why spend more money to continue abusing a sword?
As for durability in a sword, you'd do better to go with a Darksword Armory model then VA. VA's are beautiful pieces that are meant to handle incredibly, but mass produced to be affordable.
Darksword (DSA) is known for their tough-as-nails blades, but there newer models are becoming easier to handle. So yeah, if you want a sword to do bad stuff to, click the Darksword Armory banner at the bottom of this page, or go to Sword-n-Armory and check out there Beater Series katana.
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George
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Post by George on Mar 11, 2012 0:40:47 GMT
Thats easy, the Dojo Pro But ive never handled the VA Bastard so i dont know about that one...
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Post by Grindhouse on Mar 11, 2012 1:01:12 GMT
Well, you are right, i should just continue to use my cheap cheap katana for cutting wood and tree branchs (small ones). And it will continue to be my main abused sword until it breaks. When it does, ill probably get a Ronin Dojo Pro. Everyone seem to think its a great katana.
But for the moment i think im leaning toward a medieval sword. And i wanted a good one, well made, with a quality and durable blade. I'm not planning to abuse it all the time on pieces of wood, but i still want it to be able to resist that test....
Now youre putting a doubt in my mind :/ I considered buying a DSA before, heard their blade are VERY durable, but i also heard they are way too heavy and not very sharp at all. Also, it would cost about 380$ from kult of athena, which is basically the same price of a VA savoy (415$). And i thought VA made higher quality sword than DSA...
But all in all, the VA savoy is defenitly NOT as durable as a Ronin dojo pro or a DSA ?
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Aaron
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Post by Aaron on Mar 11, 2012 1:53:07 GMT
VA does make a higher quality sword than DSA. They make swords which are meant to handle like swords (though, credit where it's due, DSA has put out a couple of nice pieces recently), not to bash against trees and steel drums like it's a mace...Unfortunately, "durable" does not equal "quality" in the sword world, at least not with how the word "durable" is commonly applied.
A sword that performs the duty of a sword (that is, cutting a target roughly similar in composition to the human body) and holds up well would be considered durable. It does exactly what a sword should do without taking damage. This is because that is the intended purpose behind the design of a sword. Nothing more.
A sword should not be required to survive destructive tests to be considered durable because the targets used are generally far beyond the capability (or intended purpose) of the sword. In order to make a sword that CAN withstand this type of usage, you have to sacrifice crucial elements that make a sword what it is. Handling and cutting ability are both greatly reduced until what you have is a thick, dull piece of metal which is not a joy at all to use. This is what tends to be called a "sharpened crowbar" because that's exactly what it performs like. It bashes instead of cuts and achieves its function largely the way a mace does, by placing a large amount of mass very far from the grip. This completely throws off the mechanics of a sword.
I will not bash Eyal or DSA. I think Eyal is a fine man who stands behind his products and goes above and beyond in regards to customer service. But looking at his products objectively, he is attempting to appeal to two very different groups of reenactors (stage combat versus the historical crowd) within a single product line. Because he tries to mediate and appeal to both, his product excels at neither. His blades are far too thin and pointy to be used as stage blunts, yet they are far too thick and lack the distal taper to be great cutters. I want to see DSA become a more successful company with more "veteran" collectors, but with his current business model it will not happen. It comes down to either splitting the line between cutting swords and stage blunts, or choosing one over the other.
If you want to bash away at stuff with a medieval sword, an older DSA may be your best bet. If you want something that will act like a sword should, then VA would be your better option. But if you want to hack at wood, you should spare yourself the money and buy an axe.
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Post by Grindhouse on Mar 11, 2012 2:33:27 GMT
I understand your point. And i know a sword it not supposed and meant to be used to hit steel drums and bash trees....I don't want to reproduce what Paul from SBG does in his destructive tests....
But, i mean, it's still a piece of metal... it should be able to hit a small piece of wood without chipping, right ? I'm not saying i want to cut pieces of 2x4 all day long with a sword i will pay 400$... But if my 75$ 1060 katana can do it, i hope a VA blade can also it... If not, then i would not even feel comfortable trying to cut tatami...
Anyway, originally, i wanted to have an idea how ''durable'' a VA blade is compared to a Ronin dojo pro (as it seems a ronin dojo pro have a pretty good blade). They are both 1060 blade, but does the VA have a heat treatment as good as the Ronin to make it as ''durable'' ?
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Aaron
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Post by Aaron on Mar 11, 2012 2:50:21 GMT
It's a poor comparison. Cost has nothing to do with it...These are two fundamentally different sword types. The katana is much thicker and has more support behind the edge than the Savoy does. They are engineered completely different.
Cheaper katana are (in my experience) more likely to be overbuilt, one result of being poorly researched. VA doesn't have the research behind its models as, say, Albion, but their models are based on pieces from Angus Trim who has quite a bit of knowledge of historical European swords. You're not just paying for labor and materials, you're paying for that research and experience. Any high level craftsman in any field will tell you the same thing. You can get someone to fix your computer for cheap, or you can pay a guy more to do it the right way.
If the VA bends or chips on a bad cut or against an inappropriate target, that doesn't make it a worse sword than your 75 dollar katana.
I'm glad you're not taking this as an attack or an attempt to ridicule you, I know stating things bluntly (especially over the internet) can often be taken the wrong way and I appreciate you not being offended.
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Post by johnwalter on Mar 11, 2012 3:07:27 GMT
I own a raptor shinogi zukuri,two raptor Nanbokuchos and the shobu.I can say they are workhorse blades.My shinogi has been thru at least 600 large hard bamboo poles with no damage.I cant speak for the others.
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Post by Grindhouse on Mar 11, 2012 3:16:58 GMT
I don't feel offended at all. No reason too, you were not rude/impolite in your replys. I need honest answers to my questions and interrogations. I'm still not sure what i should buy. Maybe i should keep thinking about it. But i sure find that VA savoy VERY sexy. And if its as solid/durable as this VA Kriegschwert www.sword-buyers-guide.com/Krieg ... Sword.html i dont think i will chip my sword any time soon, unless im very unlucky (considering ill never do anything as bad as he does in the video)
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Mar 11, 2012 5:43:40 GMT
As has been said, the Savoy is a cutter. Not sure what kind of "wood" you're referring to--there's a world of difference between a 1" sapling and a tree trunk!--but keep that in mind. Like the other Atrim designs it's plenty tough and will stand up to "wood" but it's not fair to use it on thick wood repeatedly.
When you think of why your bargain katana stands up so well, one thing is that single-edged blades often hold up to heavier targets significantly better. Their thicker spines are extra strong under compression, yet their blade geometry can allow for a gradual bevel often better than double-edged blades.
So if you're looking at Euros, particularly Valiants, might I suggest a falchion? I like Windlass's German falchion myself too. If you like two-handed use there's Windlass's Raptor, you might try Hanwei's Dark Sentinel, and so on. I love my Cold Steel Grosse Messer! A tiny bit heavy, yes, but brutally strong.
In any case, Euro or Japanese, if you have reservations about hitting "wood" frequently I'd lean to single-edged blades. (I pretty much am in love with double-edged Euro blades aesthetically, but have decided to stick to single-edgers for my own buying and use for similar reasons--and I don't even systematically use hard targets!)
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George
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Post by George on Mar 11, 2012 7:01:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2012 7:32:44 GMT
You've blurred the meaning of durable, so I'll see if I can clear things up here. To put things in a very general and simple context, sharpness and edge retention are qualities which sacrifice durability, whereas a very durable blade wont necessarily have the sharpest or hardest edge. Keeping an edge and not chipping are opposite qualities in a blade. A hard brittle edge will retain its sharpness, but is more likely to chip, as people experience when they use their hanwei practicals to cut bottles and hit the hard plastic on the cap area. A sword with a very durable blade will not chip as easily, but wont hold its edge as well. If you're talking technically correct durable, the through hardened Cheness Tenchi blade will walk all over traditional differentially hardened Japanese blades, and will take a hell of a lot of abuse. People split logs with these things! but don't expect the sharpest blade or super edge retention. I don't know about the euro sword you've mentioned, but euro swords are cpmpletely different beasts to japanese sabres. I've heard that the DSA euro swords are very durable, and if you select a style that was used against armour plate, well, you'll have something that can drive through sheet metal, not something a katana was ever designed to do. It wont be razor sharp, but it doesn't need to to cut rolled up straw mats as well as a katana. If you want something to abuse and chop things swords arent meant to chop through, as well as light targetswhich is what it sounds like, your best bet would be a Cheness Tenchi.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2012 7:36:27 GMT
oh yeah, just occured to me, if you want a real "chopper", go a European falchion as previously suggested by LeMal or a Chinese dadao, though if you hiy hard wood with any sword, you'll eventually stuff it, whereas you can get a nice machete, golok, kukri or axe which will outcut any sword on very thicj hard wood!
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Mar 11, 2012 9:21:52 GMT
I have both the cheness tenchi ko kat and the tenchi itself. They are insanely tough, if you want a japanese style beater, my money would be one them. I have abused the ko kat to hell and back and it's still in very good condition. If you want a medieval european sword that can withstand rigorous use, may I suggest the H/T GSoW? Powerful warsword with excellent heat treat and blade design. It handles like a sword and as shown in this review: sbgswordforum.proboards.com/inde ... e=1#200681 is able to take quite a punishment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2012 12:57:35 GMT
Agree with Chenessfan's recommendations. Just checked out the review if the H/T GSoW the euro sword equivalent of a chainsaw!
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 11, 2012 14:40:47 GMT
The suede grips on the Raptor Katana are actually very comfortable. I did a review of the Shobu Raptor WAY back in the day... and I was surprised how much I liked the grip. That said... Aaron covered the reasons why a Savoy would likely not handled hard targets as well as a Katana based solely on blade geometry. The Katana is thicker and wider with a fat mune... the Savoy is a double edged blade and no where near as thick and reenforced as a Katana. @ very different blade types. That said... if you have a couple Katana and you want to branch out into euros... you could do a lot worst then the Savoy or any VA sword. Just bare in mind it won't be quite as 'tough' as your beater Katana... but it will look awesome and move very well... and you should still enjoy the hell out of it.
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Post by Grindhouse on Mar 11, 2012 21:18:35 GMT
Thx for your replys and advices. I decided to order the VA savoy today. I just find it too attractive, i looked for others brand, Hanwei, tinker, DSA... nothing looks as good as the VA in my opinion. (except Albion, but its way too expensive). I'm not gonna use it as a beater. But i feel pretty confident i won't chip or damage the sword if i make a bad cut on a plastic bottle or something lite like that. After watching the destruction video of the VA Kriegschwert, the VA blades seems pretty tough. I'll keep using my cheap Katana for chipping 2x4 (and someday i'll try to get a second hand DSA for beating stuff) And i want a Ronin Dojo Pro eventually too
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 12, 2012 0:19:54 GMT
Grindhouse:
You're picking a good time to get into Euros. I tend to bang on this drum a lot, but it deserves banging on (or at least I think it does).
The purchase and complete rehabilitation of Valiant Armoury by Sonny Suttles, including the collaboration with Angus Trim on design work, brought a whole new level of affordable quality Euro blades to the market. Similarly, when Hanwei hooked up with Michael Tinker Pearce, their Euro blades took a HUGE step in the right direction.
Bet you're going to like the Savoy.
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Post by lamebmx on Mar 12, 2012 0:36:25 GMT
well a couple more cents to the equation. I think you will be happy with the dojo pro, given you have cutting experience. But my opinion on the answer to your question, Cheness Tenchi. It wont hold the best edge, but it is extremely durable. We are talking dangerous abuse level durable. 4x4 against the grain, deep into 4x4 with the grain, small trees etc. It handles like crap though compared to say the dojo pro. But with proper edge alignment and form, the dojo pro should take you just fine through any non extreme abuse, ie 4x4 with the grain, small trees with a properly executed angled cut. But this is just my opinion, and you should also judge the swords taking into account your level of skill. And I did see you have already made the decision, this post is just in case you decide you want another katana.
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