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Post by Groo on Feb 14, 2012 1:21:06 GMT
Hi everyone, I'm new to the forum and I have a kind of crazy question, which might be like comparing apples and oranges, but here goes... Has anyone handled a Hanwei Cutting Jian and the Hanwei Moroha Zukuri raptor and been able to compare and contrast them? I know they are very different, but I was looking at both, and eventually decided on purchasing the Raptor. The things that seemed similar to me about them (without ever handling either) was that 1)they were both designed with cutting in mind and both designed by martial artists. 2) The Raptor also has a double edge at the tip (but the back edge doesn't come sharp) which could be used like a jian to attack with the back edge, and presumably has similar Piercing (Ci) power as a jian 3)They both can be used with a double handed grip The reasons I went with the Raptor were 1) I like the look of the Cutting Jian, but the Raptor looked slightly better to my eye 2) the Cutting Jian doesn't come polished so it is less shiny (= less aesthetically appealing in my eye ) and prone to rust 3) I assume the Raptor is better at slashing cuts and ( Pi) cleaving cuts because of its curved edge 4) I have a cold steel Gim already, but don't have a Katana 5) I am guessing the Raptor is tougher than the cutting Jian Anyway, I've already made my decision and am just waiting for the Raptor to arrive so I can start cutting stuff! LOL Just curious on people's thoughts! Cheers!
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Post by Groo on Feb 14, 2012 1:44:03 GMT
Oh and in case you were wondering why I was looking at these seemingly disparate swords from different cultures, well, I was actually looking for a 2 handed jian to practice the Wudang Fei Long Bagua Jian form..... (I know, I know BLASPHEMY using a katana in a Wudang sword form right? but the form actually has a lot of two handed slashing moves and thrusting moves, and the Moroha Zukuri seemed to fit the bill) and I also wanted a sword that was a good cutter to make my main sword for forms and cutting. Anyway, the Raptor is being discontinued so it was a really good price. From what I understand it seems to be a link or branch in the development from the straight double edged swords in early Japan (similar to the Jian) and the awesomeness of the Katana
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Feb 14, 2012 3:35:11 GMT
Well, I've had both... but I never thought to compare them in my mind since they are so different. However... I agree with a couple of your points... the Raptor will be a tougher, more durable sword... and it will make slashing cuts much better.
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Post by Groo on Feb 14, 2012 3:45:15 GMT
Awesome! I think I made the right decision even if I get lots of flack from the Wutang Clan! Nice Uchi Mata by the way!
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Feb 14, 2012 4:14:40 GMT
I'd let her throw me all day long...
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Mikeeman
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Post by Mikeeman on Feb 14, 2012 4:45:15 GMT
I don't know much about each, but I'm wondering what this is doing in the reviews section.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2012 4:47:06 GMT
The cutting jian is a one-handed straight sword, the katana is a two handed sabre, there's a world of difference there. Also, the way they're used is very different, the katana is a draw-cutting sabre, which is not that great as for point work in thrusting, while the jian is a double-edged thruster that can also slice and slash. There are also two different approaches to combat too from what little I know about the CSAs. In Scott Rodell's videos, you see him using the jian as a precision cutter, thrusting into or cutting vital points with precise, accurate movements. Contrast this with the two handed full body brute force cutting of the katana in JSA, it's chalk and cheese in my opinion. Not sure how well your CSA two handed jian forms translate to a Japanese sword. Consider your Moroha Zukuri Raptor Katana blade length is 26 1/2", while the single handed Cutting Jian has a 31" blade (that's 4 1/2" longer!) and a sword like the Hanwei Hsu 2-Handed Jian features a 36" blade, which is a whopping 9 1/2" longer than your katana!
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Post by Groo on Feb 14, 2012 5:29:59 GMT
RE:Not sure how well your CSA two handed jian forms translate to a Japanese sword. Consider your Moroha Zukuri Raptor Katana blade length is 26 1/2", while the single handed Cutting Jian has a 31" blade (that's 4 1/2" longer!)
Yea I know, and I will definitely be considered a heretic for doing the Wudang Bagua Jian form with a Japanese sword!! Especially because Bagua Jian are so BIG! But Hell I am already catching considerable flack for even wanting to DO such a crazy form with all the spinning and slashing and circle walking! But because the form has so much hacking and slashing I think it will suit the Moroha Zukuri, even though it is sooo short! And with the tip that is like a Jian I thought it would be well suited to the Jian like piercing attacks (Ci). I am not aware of any forms that are specific to the Kissa Moroha Zukuri anyway...(Maybe that's part of the reason why they are being discontinued?)
I actually want to get a two handed Jian made by Jin Shi in the Xin Jian Style eventually. I was looking at the Hanwei two handed Jian but they look so flimsy and can't be used for much cutting. I like the idea of a rugged sword that can handle some cutting as well as forms
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2012 8:30:44 GMT
I don't know anything about the Hanwei two handed Jian, I take your word for it that it's flimsy, I only have the Hanwei Cutting Jian, and I must say, a jian handles very differently from my various katana. Just make sure it doesn't mess up your form or anything! Probably might be an idea to get a wooden training jian ay least for the feel, even though it will be lighter than a real one. I too like my swords built to handle cutting as well as form practise.
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Post by Groo on Feb 16, 2012 6:58:01 GMT
Who is she? and is that you she's throwing?
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Post by HouShe on Feb 16, 2012 14:43:36 GMT
As someone who trains in a class with Bagua guys (my Sifu teaches both Taiji and Bagua) and practices the Taijijian daily. If you are planning to do forms. Get the Jian. If it's purely for form work, get a better jian.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Feb 16, 2012 14:54:58 GMT
I wish. That is Ronda Rousey... and she is throwing Nick Diaz on his butt. I'd trade places with him there in a second.
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Post by Neil G. on Feb 16, 2012 15:10:08 GMT
Check out Sherdog's "Technique of the Week w/ Ronda Rousey" here... www.sherdog.com/videosShe really knows her stuff. She's going to be headlining the next Strikeforce MMA event if I recall correctly, going up against Miesha Tate (which should be a good fight).
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Post by Groo on Feb 16, 2012 21:22:14 GMT
Thanks Fire Snake! but I already got the Raptor...just waiting for it to arrive now.. But fear not, I already have a Jian and I can do the two handed moves with it ok... I wanted a sturdy cutter for forms and cutting...I'll let you know how I get on. It is really unorthodox I know..and thank you for not biting my head off! HAHAHA! A two handed jian from Jin shi is on the wish list!
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Post by Groo on Feb 16, 2012 21:28:29 GMT
Thanks Neil! I LOVE KIMURAS!! Masahiko Kimura is actually one of my martial arts heroes!
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Post by Sir Tre on Feb 17, 2012 22:36:45 GMT
i would say a kat (or any saber) would be best fit in with chinese dao/saber technique. when i handle a kat i get accused of looking like dao form. if you are advanced level practitioner you will find a difference in the reaching of your chi to the tip of blade when performing a jian form with a dao. remember a katana is still a dao (chinese) but congrats on your purchace and good price
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Post by Groo on Feb 18, 2012 7:19:50 GMT
Yea thanks for your input Sir Tre, I was of the same opinion, but the Kissai Moroha Zukuri was such an intriguing sword to me, it looked like a katana/jian hybrid. Historically it might be somewhere along the evolution from the jian-like Ken swords of ancient Japan and the later Katana. It got me thinking that it might be interesting to try it out for both the Jian and the Dao forms, especially the two handed jian and dao. I am thinking there are lots of single handed jian movements that would be awkward such as dian (pointing). I always wondered about the double edged katana because you could do the attacks with the back of the sword in a similar manner to a jian. I am curious as to what techniques were used historically with the Kissai Moroha Zukuri swords. I was also mulling over how it would feel to extend qi through the moroha, since it is curved yet not as wide as a dao and the tip is pretty much like a jian...I imagine it would feel more natural if there were less of a curve...but I think the width and tip are pretty similar to a jian. Anyway, I'm interested to give it a go. I am also curious about the linguistics of Katana, Dao and Jian... I know the Kanji for Katana is written as Dao (I can't seem to cut and paste the Kanji here) and I think Ken (the double edged straight swords like a jian) is the same character as Jian same with the Ken of Kendo and Kenjitsu) What do people say about your handling of the katana? too much wrist action like a dao? I don't know much about Japanese sword styles, but it's interesting that Musashi said you should get accustomed to handling the katana with one hand, I guess because he liked to use two swords.
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Post by ineffableone on Feb 18, 2012 9:38:13 GMT
Funny you went with the Raptor for similar reasons as I went for my kissaki moroha zukuri My review of my kissaki moroha zukuri forum.sword-buyers-guide.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=124I mention in my review, the reason I was getting a new sword was my jian had been left in the trunk of my VW being stored at my Brothers while going back to the East coast for a few years. My Brother forgot to empty the front trunk of the VW, and the jian rusted. So I started looking for a new sword, thinking of jian, while finding the Scott Rodell (Hanwei) cutting jian I had also discovered the kissaki moroha zukuri style and fell in love with it. While you can do jian forms with the kissaki moroha zukuri, it does not take the place of a true jian. You just can't get the precision cuts & slices that a jian can. The kissaki moroha zukuri is just not balanced for the same handling, though it is better for it than any other katana I have handled. As Sir Tre mentions the dao forms would be closer to the proper style for a kissaki moroha zukuri. That said you can do jian forms with nonjian as can be seen with this video. Love it or hate it, he is using a Korean saber in place of a jian. Since getting my kissaki moroha zukuri I went more for a mixed sword style in practice. I don't only use jian style forms, but mix a little katana, dao, Euro, and other bits and pieces others have taught me as well as self invented moves. This has sort of become a weird style, but fits the sword well. I still practice pure jian style with a wooden jian, but my kissaki moroha zukuri has become my main sword and the mixed style has become my main sword technique.
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Post by Groo on Mar 6, 2012 4:49:35 GMT
Awesome review ineffableone! That's a fine looking blade! My Raptor arrived yesterday, and it's early days yet, but I think I'm in love!
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Post by Anuan on Mar 6, 2012 5:50:27 GMT
I'm just gonna pop in here in regards to that video of the guy doing jian techniques with a korean sword. While it's very good and he's quite highly skilled and stuff...
WHY IS HE DOING IT WITH NO SHOES. ON THE GRASS. AHHHH. I mean, don't get me wrong, I've done cutting with no shoes on, but I was in a firm stationary position, not running around and doing stances and jumps and spins whilst swinging my sword around in forms =|
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