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Post by Vincent Dolan on Feb 5, 2012 15:21:25 GMT
I believe the test in question is the one with R. Lee Ermy; he puts the tip of a katana through a replica breastplate, but the Euro barely pierces it because this looked to be the sword they were using and it was just too flexible.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2012 16:10:28 GMT
Exactly! The Euro sword was too long so when the Euro sword was being thrust into the platemaille it lost most of its inertia due to the bend whereas the katana being only 28 inches or so in length just plowed right through the platemaille. Katanas are really good at slashing but they are also good for thrusting. Personally if I were fighting I would try to stay away from thrusts because when you stab your opponent you best be praying that you have a lightsaber in your hands and hope that lasers don't get stuck in metal haha. Also if I remember correctly swords evolved from big broadly tipped things to thinner and thinner tipped swords because a thinner tip had a better chance of piercing armor than a broad sword. However back in the day I am sure (and this is my sole opinion) armor was never measured to a precise gauge. Knights had to move around the battlefield pretty easily and being bogged down with heavy armor was more of a hindrance than useful. Also to note is the bodkin arrow. These little nasty buggers were basically the knight's death warrant. The arror can be found here >>>> www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en ... Heads%2B(6)&docid=f1UEr6khSNGbCM&imgurl=http://www.kultofathena.com/images/AH352225.jpg&w=238&h=450&ei=paIuT4izCNGltwe-n8XdDw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=580&sig=111556581387254872204&page=1&tbnh=159&tbnw=84&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0&tx=51&ty=46 the tip was narrowed down so that it could blast through armor and bury itself into the knight. But what about siege weapons? Such as scorpions, springalds, and ballistas? Scorpions and ballistas were really used by the romans and one bolt could go through one soldier and whoever was behind that unlucky man also had an opportunity to meet the same fate as the man before him...only the bolt didn't go through him. Oh and the men were also armored as well when the bolt was causing this devastation. Repeating ballistas or Polybolos were also very intriguing and also grabbed the attention of the Roman Empire en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybolos Springalds were much more powerful than your average scorpion en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springald <<<< video of the springald. It looks silly in design and took 2 minutes to wind the arms back but its range was greater than that of the other torsion machines. I should really go back and correct what I said about chainmaille. Riveted chainmaille if made correctly is like wearing a sheet of iron. It is almost like platemaille but if it is stabbed with a very narrow sword or spear....like a ...well one of these..not an epee because those are foils for dueling but like one of these swords. www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en ... x=63&ty=46 you may also note that there are *MANY* different combos of chainmaille like 4-1 which is 4 links hooked on 1 link, 6-1 I think there is one which is the same as the 4-1 only with two more links, and I think there's kings maille which is 8-1. You can also double up the latter part of the ratio to make the chainmaille stronger. So you could loop 4 rings onto 2 rings to make 4-2. Obviously the more links you have the tighter, heavier, and stronger the chainmaille will become. Ottomans made their own unique armor with chainmaille and so did the Asians. Personally I like japanese chainmaille because it is *so* easy to make but time consuming because of the different sized links. Here are some links to what the chainmaille desings look like. 4-1>>>http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS368&biw=1366&bih=563&tbm=isch&tbnid=8EgR-PXm3QLIVM:&imgrefurl=http://www.instructables.com/id/European-4-in-1-maille-chainmail-speedweaving/&docid=KFBn1PHadX3KIM&imgurl=http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FZC/SAQ8/F2ZL53DX/FZCSAQ8F2ZL53DX.MEDIUM.jpg&w=560&h=420&ei=T6cuT9jEF82utwef5oz-Dw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=141&sig=111556581387254872204&page=1&tbnh=112&tbnw=149&start=0&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=50&ty=40 6-1/japanese styled chainmaille>>>> www.mailleartisans.org/articles/ ... i?key=3386 kingsmaille somewhat..best what I could find at the moment >>>> www.mailleartisans.org/weaves/we ... hp?key=280 How did armorers protect their armor from the elements? If I remember correctly because this has been a while ago...I think they let the armor rust a little bit and then they scraped that off and rubbed hot beeswax over it. The rust kept it from rusting more because it made a barrier on top of the good steel and then the wax over on top of it waterproofed it. I heard this from a blacksmith himself so if anyone has any differing ideas on this subject I would be most interested to learn other ways. Scalemaille? Scailmaille to me is very beautiful because it is somewhat lightweight defies blades striking across it and the plus side of it is you look like some kind of human dragon! However the only terrible downside to it is if someone had the grand idea of lifting the blade underneath the scales...well...let's just say that's where scalemaille doesn't shine so much anymore. Anyway I am humbled by your opinion of beign on the top of your list but I am really no expert by any of this stuff. I just youtube a lot of history channel and interesting things and I read a bit to expand my knowledge. And look what I have done....I have made an encyclopedia now lol.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Feb 5, 2012 16:25:58 GMT
OK...
--Good riveted chain mail was excellent protection against most blows; nobody will dispute that. Where chainmail doesn't shine so much, however, is that it won't do much at all against impact trauma. It gives way under a blow, so even if the edge or point doesn't go through, the force of the blow is still going to blow through the body and cause damage to the organs and bones. This is why padding under chainmail is so very essential-- it helps absorb weapon impacts.
--Standard 4-in-1 chain mail was the most common; 1-in-6 was used on occasion, but generally only as reinforcement in areas such as around the neck. There's only a few extant pieces of Western chain mail that have a more advanced weave than 4-in-1. Weaves such as 'kingsmaille', 'Persian', 'Byzantine' etc, are almost all modern innovations for artistic purposes and have very little utility in armour as they're quite heavy and bulky when woven into sheets.
--Scale is indeed attractive, but you're exactly right on why it isn't very practical-- it's no good at protecting against an upward stab. Lamellar is an alternative that looks similar and doesn't have that issue; however, it's fairly rigid. I've heard it compared to 'wearing a roof', and that sounds about right to me.
--Finally, while it may look it, good plate armour is NOT 'heavy' as we think of it. All told, yes, it does add up to what may sound like a lot of weight-- 40, 50 pounds-- but here's the little secret-- that weight is, in well designed suits, distributed and sorted out over the body. The helmet rests on the head; that's about 10lbs. right there (you want a lot of protection for the head/neck). Back-and-breast rest on shoulders and hips; shoulders attach to the arm armour, and together you could call that probably 30lbs, quite likely closer to 20. The thighs and knees of leg armour generally hung from a belt or from the bottom of the arming doublet/jack; well-made greaves could basically hold themselves up by conforming to the calves, and together all that's another ten pounds. When you think of how it's all split up, it really isn't all that bad. Certainly doesn't compare to a 50lb bulletproof vest and another 60 in a backpack for a modern US soldier in a battlezone!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2012 16:44:55 GMT
okay so I did a bit more research here. this is the series of the euro vs the katana series. and here is the great sword stabbing through metal Something to note is this...modern forging has evolved *A LOT* since the medieval era. They didn't have steel as we do today. Elheru is correct with his statements as well. Although it would still be very interesting to see kingsmaille woven in sections such as the torso. You very well could utilize that in your story. Make it like out of ..mythril? lol That's what I was trying to get my point across about the platemaille. It isn't heavy because it would hinder the knight more than anything else. The torso section had a lip beveled outward so that it could rest on the hips to distribute the weight better instead of having the straps on top pulling down on the shoulders. But how you worded it was much better than I could lol. I would love to have a piece of kevlar and test out how many times I could slash at it to see if it really does hold up to what people say it can do. Also interesting to note is this. Did you know that with the introduction of guns chivalry and society changed dramatically as well as war? Now instead facing your foe and introducing yourself to your opponent (as did the samurai) you just took plinking shots at each other. So as you can see a lot of ppl here know what they are talking about lol. This just reminds me of the saying "if you ask 5 blacksmiths how to do a particular job they will give you 12 ways of doing it"
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Feb 5, 2012 17:05:38 GMT
Jeff got most everything, but I want to add some things of my own that he didn't address:
First: Windlass swords, to my knowledge (so I could be wrong), are made from a single piece of 33" bar stock with little distal taper. By virtue of the sword I linked to being 44", it would essentially be made from several pieces of steel with next to no distal taper. What this does is that it makes the tip too heavy for the blade to remain rigid, as a sword of this design (vaguely XVIIIb) should, so it flexes far more than it should. If a sword flexes overmuch, it loses power in the thrust; that is the main reason a sword like a Type XI or XII, even with their comparatively narrow tips, are poorer in the thrust than an XV or XVI (or XVII or XVIII), which have a central ridge to stiffen the blade. Using a properly made sword with a central ridge, length does not matter. In fact, with a greatsword like an XVIIIe (such as the Albion Dane, for example), you could halfsword it and use it as a polearm quite easily without sacrificing as much range as if you halfsworded an arming sword or even longsword. Any Euro sword with a central ridge would penetrate a steel breastplate just as much as the katana from the R. Lee Ermy test, but why would you want to? No matter how much it penetrates, it's pointless if you can't pull it back out. The main reason tips got narrower and narrower were to get into the gaps in armor. See, with something like boiled leather, which has always been an extremely popular style among many peoples, it is very resilient against slashing attacks, but it's about as effective against thrusting as a piece of paper; even an XIII with a spatulate tip could thrust through boiled leather. So what happens when you have armor that's good against both thrusting and cutting? You aim for the gaps, which are always as narrow as can be, so you need a narrow sword tip to get into them.
Second, armor was heavy, yes, but it was not cumbersome. Just ask Jeremy; as a stage combat fighter, he regularly wears plenty of armor, so he can tell you in great detail about its weight and how little it restricts his movement. Hell, through a humorous story he mentioned once, where his helmet got knocked off, so he grabbed the horsehair tassel attached to it and used it like a flail, the implication is that he is nimble enough to do something that would require quite a few fine motor skills with ease.
As for the Cold Steel sword stabbing through metal... That, my friend, is a car hood; a paper thin piece of steel or aluminum. Plate armor was tempered steel, hammer forged by a blacksmith who slaved away over it for as long as it took to complete, not something stamped out in a factory in China and put together in about five minutes. That's like comparing a dollar store water gun with a Super Soaker; yeah, they both shoot water, but the build quality and water pressure vastly differ.
Lastly, chivalry had its place on the battlefield as much as carrying a decapitated head on your belt would in court. If you tried to introduce yourself to your opponent in battle, he would cut you down and think nothing of it. I don't care what you think is true, battle is an ugly affair and anything that gets in the way of your chances for survival is dross, whether you're the poorest of peasants or the lord of the land. Gunpowder changed warfare dramatically, but that was not the reason. The reason was that you now had a weapon that took less time to train than a bow, was more powerful than a crossbow, and had the added bonus of being a psychological weapon; not only could it work against the fears of men, but such a loud noise could startle horses and potentially disrupt a charge.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2012 17:14:31 GMT
lol I added the coldsteel video because it shows how swords operated. I know the carhood is incredibly thin and doesn't compare to armor back in the day but you have to admit that it is still impressive. The chivalry bit was from my history book and history professor at college. I am just repeating what they said lol. Japanese samurai did go up to one another and introduce themselves before fighting because they thought it was shameful not to say who you were and fighting someone you didn't know is something that they did not do. But that even changed. War is ugly no matter how you look at it. Perhaps we should all settle our diagreements with chess games lol. I know there's a bit of a culture clash there over European chivalry and Asian chivalry.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Feb 5, 2012 17:42:56 GMT
The helmet story happened in chainmail. I typically fought wearing maile and leather. Byzantine mostly. Varingian guard with an axe and shield.
The thing about plate is covered. Made properly I've seen guys who moved no slower than average in it. The hinderance comes if it's not tailor fitted to you usually. Also, the few times I got to wear plate, I did note I could move fine, but in different ways. My stride was shorter, so I had to quicken it, pivots were awkward unless I moved at such an angle, etc...
The big thing to remember is katanas didn't face plate. And we have no idea the quality of the plate v.s. the quality of the katana, nor how such use may have damaged it. Too many variables to take that reliably, and overall with a katana you're far better off to slice at the sides/back of knees, armpits, and inside of the elbows.
Chainmail "voider" pieces were sometimes made to cover these, but their quality was iffy. Or the neck, a good enough samurai could probably knock a knight unconcious. My last fight in plate, and first against anyone JSA trained ended thus. Struck me on the visor pin with his tsuka and I woke up to my helmet being disassembled to remove it. This being from the draw.
Important lesson? Weapons evolved the way they did, and armor, for good reasons that it is really very pointless to argue against. And eastern and western weapons/armor fights can't be determined to an absolute result, as they never have nor will see for real martial/life or dearh combat by warriors used to such and trained to it. The bulk of us swordsmen today are but shadows compared to even most squires of yore.. And our best would still struggle.
Oh, and do do the helmet-flail.. While cool, it is very rude, dangerous, and can overswing and knock you in the back of the head. :/
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2012 17:53:28 GMT
Ouch! You were knocked out by a katana?
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Feb 5, 2012 18:00:57 GMT
The helmet had a flaw apparently(borrower gear) and when the tsuka struck it the visor join failed and crumpled in near my temple. Cut my head open, and hit me hard enough I don't remember him even drawing.
Thankfully the cut and resulting scar were small and hidden by my hair! Wouldn't want to ruin my pretty face!
Lesson learned: hakamas are not skirts. Do not call them such. And if a JSA practioner hooks his fingers in his obi and you hear a click, adopt a guard stance.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Feb 5, 2012 18:29:36 GMT
Except hakama are skirts, at their most basic, same as a kilt; in fact, while everyone is more familiar with the umanori hakama (horse-riding hakama) that are divided, there's also the andon bakama (lantern hakama) which are undivided and so are little more than a pleated skirt that's fastened in an interesting way. It's just that calling them a skirt is disparaging, the same way that calling the familiar shinobi-shozoku (ninja garb) pajamas is meant to be insulting.
Anyways! Personally, I think if a katana came up against properly made plate armor, I think it would hurt the guy inside it as much as any other sword, but would otherwise do little to the armor itself, same as any other sword. But speaking of hooking to the back of the knees, the side, the neck, and such, it makes me wonder why scythe-style polearms (excluding the war scythe) weren't more popular; you could hook a man on horseback and yank him out of the saddle and use the orientation of the edge to make those cuts without getting too close. Think about it, with a sword, to attack to the back of the knee, you'd have to get pretty close and low, giving them a good shot at your back; with a scythe, you could lower the head and pull upwards. At the least, you'd toss them to the ground, to which you could tackle them and get a dagger into the gaps in their armor. There's probably more you could do, but I'm not going to speculate lest I start derailing the thread.
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Post by Don Boogie on Feb 5, 2012 18:36:38 GMT
welcome to the forum:p and indeed there is nothing wrong with an obsession of swords:p,now i dont agree that the pen is mightier than the sword:) never been able to slice a coke bottle with a pen
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Feb 5, 2012 18:46:32 GMT
Look up 'bill-hook' or 'glaive'. They had a back spike for just such a purpose!
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Feb 5, 2012 23:35:43 GMT
Ok, first off.... Not intending to step on sicangu's toes here or anything, but PLEASE don't do your research by strolling through youtube. The popular results there are from TV shows made for smash and bang entertainment or from wrongheaded "experiments" with inaccurate materials or from advertisements meant to sell blades as indestructable lightsabers. The stuff from people who actually know what they are talking about is buried deeper in the youtube and is harder to find because those videos are not as interesting to watch or popular. Far more often the people who are going for accuracy write up articles or books or other text-based stuff instead of videos, but that's changing. Doesn't change how hard they are to find unless you are linked through from a reliable source first. It suffices to say that Cold Steel videos and R. Lee Ermy clips are NOT good sources for understanding how swords and armor were used. Anyway. It's important to not confuse flexible with flimsy. Riveted mail was a very effective armor in most ways, and very difficult to breach with a blade. Jeff/Elheru and Vincent already covered well the drawbacks of mail against impact forces, but if you want to know more about mail and why it was actually pretty awesome, I suggest taking a look at this article: Mail: UnchainedAs for more general armor misconceptions and some really kick-ass examinations of full plate harnesses, check out this wonderful presentation from the Metropolitan Museum of Art:
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Feb 5, 2012 23:41:14 GMT
Mounting a horse in full kit.... Thank goodness I never had to do that, as I fall off one of those four legged demons in street clothes quite well on my own.
Luna posted some good resources.. I didn't intend to say anything, but yes... youtube is usually a crapshoot of information. And I like the Gunny as much as the next guy, but he's no sword expert.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2012 1:03:48 GMT
Youtube is useful for some things you just have to be careful what you research. I don't really have a plethora of knowledge and I am glad that people here know what they are talking about.
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Post by Neil G. on Feb 6, 2012 14:26:54 GMT
On the topic of the effectiveness of maille and quilted armor I'd like to direct you to take a look at this thread on MyArmoury.com. In it Michael Edelson of NYHFA puts a variety of weapons to the test against padded jacks and maille. www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... highlight= If it's TL;DR for ya I'll sum up. Cutting quality riveted maille with a sword is pretty much impossible. Stabbing is difficult - needle like tips tend to penetrate to the depth at which the blade width matches the inner diameter of the individual rings of maille, which is to say not penetrating very far at all, and at that point the maille tends to bunch up binding the blade. If you can stab with enough force to burst a ring you can penetrate to a much greater depth, but it's not nearly as easy as you might think. Cutting a proper 30 layer jack (yes, cloth armor) with a sword is pretty difficult. A polearm will make short work of ... well, just about everything they tested, even riveted maille. Arrows fired against maille do well, but against padded armor do not... combine the two and you're pretty hard to kill.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Feb 6, 2012 14:40:51 GMT
Sweet link, Neil. I actually read to the very end of the testing, because I was just hooked on it. Karma for that. I'm going to have to remember that thread should I ever decide to use armor in my stories (most of which involve more civilian brawls with swords added, so there's no real armor).
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Feb 6, 2012 15:00:08 GMT
Very nice link. Gives a more formal, scientific way to express what common sense and training taught me.
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Post by Riv Re on Feb 10, 2012 2:58:03 GMT
Ooh. Thanks for the amazing link, Neil. Totally bookmarking. Thanks for all the help. I've gotten so much more help than I originally came for.
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