Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Feb 3, 2012 6:08:35 GMT
That bit ain't that hard to figure out, actually. Here's a simple rule: if you have to wonder whether a type of armor could be cut through--it couldn't be cut through. Plate, mail (that is, real RIVETED mail, not butted crap mail), hardened leather, even simple layers of linen jack are are either difficult or impossible to breach with the edge of a sword. Seriously. Just didn't happen. That's not to say you couldn't kill a man in armor with a blow from a sword (one certainly could, and did) it's just that it wasn't by slicing his skin that one accomplished this. This is a strangely counter-intuitive thing, since flesh is actually surprisingly easy to cut through and most cutting-oriented swords can easily sever a limb with a proper blow. But swords cannot cut through armor. Never did.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Feb 3, 2012 6:30:20 GMT
In the case of these two, if you can't cut through it, you can generally stab through it. Still, even if you can't get through it, you can still kill a man through sheer blunt trauma.
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Feb 3, 2012 6:31:49 GMT
Yep. That's why I said you couldn't breach it with the edge. Reading comprehension FTW.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Feb 3, 2012 6:34:10 GMT
Ah, but the point still has an edge on it! :lol:
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Feb 3, 2012 6:37:55 GMT
Not all the time. Ever heard of a tuck? Also:
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Feb 3, 2012 6:47:23 GMT
POKE 'EM INNA EYE!
Solves all your problems XD
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Feb 3, 2012 7:29:22 GMT
^^This guy gets it.
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Post by Todash on Feb 3, 2012 13:53:40 GMT
I haven't. Could you describe it?
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Post by Neil G. on Feb 3, 2012 15:14:52 GMT
An oversimplification, but think of the Tuck (or Estoc) as 4 foot long icepick, usually used two handed - add a longer handle to it and you get an Ahlspiess or Awlpike. I like the German word Ahlspiess it literally means Eel Spit/Spike. Anyway, here is a Tuck manufactured by Windlass back in the day... And here is an Ahlspiess
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Post by Todash on Feb 3, 2012 17:32:36 GMT
Thank you Neil. Pretty cool looking weapon. You could make shish kabobs.
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Post by Anders on Feb 3, 2012 17:32:54 GMT
Honestly, my attitude to writing is pretty much: "Fun takes priority." Especially if you are writing fantasy, realism should be the last thing to worry about. What you need to aim for is consistency. I could totally have a guy cut straight through a plate armor with a cutting sword. But that would be because he's just that damn strong, and the sword is just that damn good. It's fantasy, dammit.
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Post by Riv Re on Feb 3, 2012 20:16:53 GMT
Lunaman Oh, thanks for the armor bit! I'll keep that in mind. What about hitting between pieces of armor? Are there any cracks that a sword can slide through? No one in my book really wears the whole thing, with huge metal plates. More like...I can't explain it. I wish I knew the official word for it, but I'm going to go the TV route and say that they wre armor like D'harans (Legend of the Seeker) with a bit more...metal. Are there ways to cut through this, or ways to cut between pieces? jhart06 Eyes. That works too... I'll definitely keep it in mind Anders FUN!!
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Post by JohnE on Feb 3, 2012 20:28:40 GMT
Every suit of armor had gaps and weak points, even full plate, commonly under the arms and in the groin, as well as the visor. As I understand it, fighting against an opponent wearing a lot of armor is pretty much about three things: 1) finding the gaps with the point of your sword (or spear, or polaxe, or whatever), 2) hitting them over the head with enough force to knock them senseless, and 3) wrestling them to the ground so you can pin them down and jam your dagger into the gaps.
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Feb 3, 2012 21:19:47 GMT
^^What John said. The fellas in that photo should watch out for loss of hands and lower legs, by the way.
Since the compatriots of the bare-headed gentleman have mail hauberks, I'm assuming he has one on under his red garment as well, otherwise it would be more than feasible to remove his arms with a proper blow above his bracers. But those are the kind of "Big Gaps" that armor avoids. You gotta find the small gaps with a point and bleed out a poor bastard, or kill/maim through blunt trauma (but not necessarily with a blunt instrument).
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Post by Hackenslash on Feb 4, 2012 3:05:10 GMT
For the sake of reference here's a nice video on how men in armour fought using swords
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2012 20:45:38 GMT
Historical perspective here lol. Many people didn't go into battle with plate armor. Mostly the common foot soldier either had leather maille or chainmaille at best only the nobles had plate armor because it was fitted specifically to them. Jousting armor was extremely thick due to the impact force of the lance. Plate armor did offer tremendous protection for the person wearing than leather or chainmaille (chainmaille really only protects against slashing...stabbing..is another story. That's why they riveted the links. Chainmaillers like to butt the pieces together which is just basically making a circle and pushing the ends together until they meet. This kind of "butted" chainmaille will fail every time if it's stabbed or even slashed multiple times) Anyway long story short is platemaille could actually be stabbed. I have seen a katana bury itself an inch or so into platemaille vs a Euro sword only was an 1/2 inch or so deep. John does know what he is talking about. When a knight was wrestled to the ground often times the opponent would open the visor to see who the noble was and if the noble could be captured and then ransomed for a price it was only common sense not to kill the knight. Also another thing to mention is halberds....common foot soldiers had problems trying to take down knights in platemaille so they invented a halberd which is basically a quasi form of a spear/axe. On the reverse side of the halberd was a hook which could wedge itself into the gaps of the armor and tug the knight to and fro. www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... BQ&dur=437 <<<link of a halberd if you wish to look at it. Anywho welcome to the forums everyone here is *extremely* kind and you should enjoy it here! I shall now step off of my soapbox here after writing a huge book paragraph lol.
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Post by Riv Re on Feb 5, 2012 6:57:08 GMT
JohnE thanks for that! I've never really imagined soldiers wrestling each other, but you're the expert. LunaMan chainmail has always looked really weak and flimsy to me. How easy/hard is it to slash through? Or stab? Hackenslash thanks for the link. Gotta love YouTube. Sicangu thanks SO much. I've always been so confused about the armor thing; it didnt make any sense to me that thousans of simple foot-soldiers would go out to fight in big, expensive armor. I also never knew that you could stab plate mail so easily. It looks so thick and...impenetrable. Thanks for your "huge book paragraph" as well. It was very helpful. But be warned: you have now moved to the top of my hitlist on who to address all of my questions on medieval armor to. I really appreciate the useful factoids. Thanks all of you. SBG is really growing on me...like mold. (I kid.) (also: apologies for any typos in this. I'm working on a phone right now.)
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Post by JohnE on Feb 5, 2012 7:19:15 GMT
I'm not an expert, not by a long shot. I read a lot about this stuff, but take anything I say with a grain of salt.
If it's made well, it's very hard to slash through. On Deadliest Warrior (not generally a good source for this stuff but some of their tests are informative) they tried to cut through it with a katana and barely made a scratch.
As for stabbing, the info I've heard is all over the board. Some people say you can stab through it easily, others say that if you wear it right, over a padded jacket, it's pretty hard to stab through.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Feb 5, 2012 12:36:13 GMT
Chainmail is nearly impossible to stab through unless the sword being used has an extremely narrow point, ala, an XV(a), XVI(a), or XVII, for example. I've seen tests of it done with narrow and broad tipped blades, and only the narrow tipped blades penetrated at all; and then they penetrated best from the half-sword, but they only penetrated less than an inch or so. Also worth note is that they had a ridiculously difficult time pulling it out, as the chain mail grabbed the blade and refused to let go. If I can find the exact clip that shows these tests, I'll post it here as it's quite informative.
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jhart06
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Post by jhart06 on Feb 5, 2012 14:39:28 GMT
I'm not sure I believe the plate being stabbed so easily with a katana(a dedicated cutter) when dedicated thrust swords from Europe struggled. But I'm far from an expert on the japanese blades.
Another point- most people assume knights didn't fight peasants for honor. My interpretation is they didn't because they'd loose. Horribly.
A knight on foot in plate is very vulnerable to the halberd/bill-hook, and even more so mounted. While it wouldn't be common place for the peasant to, if they got their blow in, and knew their weapon better than a greenhorn, the knight was simply too slow. I've seen this work in person several times.
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