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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2012 22:17:07 GMT
lamebmx Ohhh I was thinking of just tying a piece of rope to the nakago and the rope would then be suspended from a pole that could move. It would be like a third arm that would neutralize the sword's weight so that it would seem the sword would be weightless. Or perhaps you could have a pole with a moveable ball that could pivot in any direction to the nakago. Would be interesting if someone could come up with a jig lol. Just throwing ideas out there lol. sceraxn ohhh okay I understand now thanks for explaining your process. Does anyone here oil the nakago at all though? I remember reading that people shouldn't oil the nakago for dating the age of the sword purposes but I kind of find that silly unless your sword is an antique or something. Also, what about sword polishing/oiling kits? Are there cheap everyday substitutes that I could use instead of buying the choji oil or uchiko powder balls? Cotton cloths can replace the rice paper I would imagine.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jan 26, 2012 23:40:26 GMT
I wouldn't oil the nakago. It may damage the wood over time.
A lot of us use 91% alcohol instead of uchiko powder. It cleans well, and is less abrasive than powder. Bon Ami powder also works well, just make sure you clean all of it off.
Light mineral oil works. A regular sized bottle should last you the rest of your natural life, so $5 or $6 is pretty cheap. Also, 3 in 1 oil and sewing machine oil have been mentioned.
A soft cloth should work. I cut up some old shirts and that works great.
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Post by sceraxn on Jan 27, 2012 2:07:02 GMT
I agree with Adrian, i wouldnt oil the nakago. The oil will cause any organic compounds to start breaking down, and that means fast and voracious rust when its in contact with a piece of steel.
You can make your own choji oil by mixing 15 parts Mineral Oil to 1 part Clove Oil. Though, to be honest, plain Mineral Oil would work just as well it just wont smell as nice(the smell is the only thing Clove oil adds). Choji is a type of vegetable oil that they used to use because they didnt have access to pure mineral oils. Since Choji is an organic based oil it can actually cause oxidation and rust over time as it breaks down, and pure choji oil(or a mixture with too high of a percentage of Clove oil) will get really sticky and actually hold dirt and debris against the blade, which increases the chances of oxidation or rust occuring. Personally, id just stick with plain mineral oil or the mineral based "Choji" oil that you get in most kits(which isnt actually Choji oil).
I only use uchiko after ive done some cutting or if the blade hasnt been cleaned for a while. Uchiko is a powder made from a whetstone called uchigumori-to, so its actually abrasive and will cause tiny scratches on the surface of the blade, which over time it will cause it to look cloudy and can increase the chance of oxidation. I typically use alcohol or benzene to clean my blades. It will cut through any oil and contanimates on the surface of the blade without causing scratches.
Like Adrian said, any clean(and i must stress that it stays clean) soft cloth should work fine. I only use rice paper when im cleaning with the uchiko because it doesnt have as many pores to trap the powder, so it stays on the surface of the paper and cuts through the oil easier. If you dont have any rice paper then you can substitute it with any plain tissue paper that doesnt have any lotion or scented stuff on it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2012 5:20:21 GMT
adrian Thanks for the info I will definitely keep your suggestions in mind. Too bad you can't oil the nakago. I would really like to keep my katana in good condition. sceraxn Yeah I don't really mind how the sword smells...I mean swords are meant to cut things up with right? Not for smelling lol! However I think with some simple herbology knowledge on mixing oils and extracting fragrances from various plants like lavender you could make your own specialized sword oil. Though at the same time I think you would have to be careful since you said too high of a percentage of Clove oil is dangerous. Couldn't you just forget about using the uchiko powder if you cleaned your sword with alcohol? I remember reading that the powder just absorbs all of the old oil if I remember correctly.
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 27, 2012 15:08:31 GMT
and it also acts as a fine polish. I believe it is a good idea on occaision, as it cleans the oil off better and re-does the surface of the blade a bit. the whole dulling of the polish is pretty much bull, unless you took the polish to some .25 or .1 micron jewelers rouge. baby power seems to be an allright substitute, just make sure to clean and dry the blade very thoroughly as it will try to clump up. lamebmx Ohhh I was thinking of just tying a piece of rope to the nakago and the rope would then be suspended from a pole that could move. It would be like a third arm that would neutralize the sword's weight so that it would seem the sword would be weightless. Or perhaps you could have a pole with a moveable ball that could pivot in any direction to the nakago. Would be interesting if someone could come up with a jig lol. Just throwing ideas out there lol. dont try to make a jig, do a few first then think of a jig. the only thing I could thing of, mount tang in a mount with a slightly curved surface to allow roll. kind of like a restricted big version of a GI Joe arm. adjustable height. zero mass with frictionless wheels. a string would need adjusted every few inches of the blade. wouldnt be bad for | strokes, but hell on with the with the blade strokes. let alone the finer finishing stones and the nearly full blade length strokes. your gonna find the best jig for it is already built into your body.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2012 22:04:04 GMT
Really? Baby powder? Someone (not here) said that baby powder is way to rough for the blades. I will have to give that a try. lol yeah I am not going to try and make a jig. Let's just master polishing first lol one thing at a time lol.
and it also acts as a fine polish. I believe it is a good idea on occaision, as it cleans the oil off better and re-does the surface of the blade a bit. the whole dulling of the polish is pretty much bull, unless you took the polish to some .25 or .1 micron jewelers rouge. <<< I apologize for not understanding but what also acts as a fine polish?
oh I just ran up to the auto zone store and bought some sand paper. the wet and dry stuff I got grades 2000, 1500, 1000, 320, 400, 600 and 800. the 320-800 is the stage 2 but the rest are stage 3. stage 2 is paint and primer sanding and stage 3 is the clear coat sanding. This may sound like a silly question as I am sort of going off of the japanese water stone grit sizes but...this is a good set to achieve that mirror polish for swords right? lol.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jan 27, 2012 22:37:37 GMT
I think he was referring to the uchiko as providing a super-fine polish.
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 28, 2012 2:36:21 GMT
adrian.jordan hit the nail on the head. and no they are not the same grits. as a matter of fact, there are numerous grits and they are really not interchangable. dl.dropbox.com/u/28778037/Grit%2 ... -23-09.pdf I tend to take note of the actual particle size, but keep in mind not all particles of a particular size have the same behavior when polishing. That should be pretty decent finish. at autozone they also have a 3000 grit paper. its kinda more like a thin sponge.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2012 17:43:34 GMT
I just polished a small area on a kitchen knife and I really like what the 2000 grit does however I couldn't find any 3000 grit at the auto zone store. I would really like to buff out the scratches the 2000 grit leaves behind but it is mirror polish. Okay so when I want a set of sharpening stones I should just buy from one company instead of mixing? Makes sense...
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 28, 2012 19:11:15 GMT
Namikawa sells a decent sounding polishing kit for like $600 $700
Read the grit comparison, it covers a bunch of brands, sharptons, DMT and King's come to mind. I found you need a bit of mix and match to get a nice coverage of grits.
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Post by sceraxn on Jan 28, 2012 20:58:59 GMT
I respectfully disagree. Uchigumori-to is a polishing stone that was used in traditional sword polishing. Two of them actually, uchigumori-ha-to and uchigumori-ji-to. Uchiko is just the powder form of these stones, and range from 3000-4000grit depending on which kind you get. Like uchiko powder, the Hazuya polishing stone is also made from uchigumori-to. It will take a lot of cleanings for the haziness to appear, but it will appear without a doubt. The only way to keep this from happening is to lessen the amount you use the uchiko. @sicangu: Heres a good DIY article on traditional polishing techniques. www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/togi,process.html
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 28, 2012 23:36:38 GMT
Let me clarify a bit. Bull for most blades in this forum. Antique nihonto where uchiko degradation occurs over years - decades yes. hence why i qualified with "pretty much." I also mentioned how different "grits" or particle sizes behave differently due to composition. if you use uchiko on a blade that has been polished to 12K or 1 micron sizes you will see no ill effect (no effect whatsoever actually). If you use uchiko on something that has been polished to .5 micron particle size (which can be seen to work 1 micron) it still will not degrade the finish (heck it makes no visible change, better or worse). So whatever the grit of stone uchiko comes from, you will need less than .5 micron polishing compound to have uchiko affect it (by application, not talking years/decades)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 1:22:09 GMT
Thank you for the link and thank you guys for your suggestions! I just got done polishing the face of a kitchen knife and I realize what lamebmx was talking about how different grits and different stones will be a problem. I was polishing with the sandpaper and realized that the grain lines on the kitchen knife weren't going away so I started over again with 320 or 400 grain paper I don't remember which but I was going at it for a good long time and I wasn't making any progress. I took one of my sharpening stones and started to grind away until the lines disappeared. I then started again with 320 grit sandpaper but the scratch marks from the stone are still visible lol. Anyway here is a picture of the knife. I haven't tried polishing the double bevel or the "shinogi" part which I know I am not supposed to do. The shiny part is where I obviously polished and it was rather difficult to try and not to grind over that "shinogi" line and I think I did grind it down a bit but not so much as you can't see it. Right now it just looks a bit...."fuzzy" I guess I am going to have to really practice some more. Oh and another note too is that I didn't use the whole piece of sandpaper. I wanted to test this out so I cut the strips about 1/2 inch thick by 4 inches long.
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Post by lamebmx on Jan 29, 2012 2:07:59 GMT
looks like it has some nice reflectivity to it. Practice makes perfect! I dont know how to explain this other than different things scratch differently. my tenchi still bears some scars from rubbing a bit with 40 grit emery paper. it did not do anything at first. a little bit more pressure and its been a few polishes and the scratches are still evident. Practice and playing around will get you there though. Unless of course you know someone who can teach you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2012 18:51:25 GMT
Oh yes I definitely agree with you. The only thing that I am reluctant on is that "shinogi" line on the kitchen knife and that second bevel. I would still like to achieve a higher mirror like quality for the knife but I am happy how it turned out lol!
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Post by Jakeonthekob on Feb 1, 2012 2:48:05 GMT
You can achieve a clean line between the shinogi and the ji without polishing the shinogi, but you have to be careful. Having too much rocking motion will blur those planes together. I'm actually doing togi work right now and going on 1000 grit XD. Maybe I'll post pics, etc of the process I go through.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2012 3:06:41 GMT
I think I have gotten better at not rounding over the "shinogi" line with the kitchen and pocket knives I have been practicing on lol. If you could provide pics those would be of great interest jake!
Something that I have just noticed is that when I finish up with the 2000 grit paper the blade looks really foggy...now I thought that was because I was hurrying through the process so I reversed the blade and polished the other side that was already polished (thought I could get a better polish) the very same thing happened on the other face of the blade. This was quite interesting and didn't make any sense so I took a shop rag and started to rub the blade dry and only after I did this did the blade start to shine like a mirror. Why do I have to rub the blades dry with a towel to get the mirror finish?
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Post by Jakeonthekob on Feb 5, 2012 6:19:28 GMT
Are you working with water or dry? It may be that the metal particles stick some to the blade from dry runs on the sandpaper. Besides that, you won't get a pure reflective edge on 2000 grit. You need to go to around 4000 or above to get a really nice shiny finish. Also, the polish looks better when you go from diagonal strokes across to parallel to the blade. The polish will then really start to shine. What I usually do is I use 1000 or below to establish geometry of the blade w/ diagonal (45-30 degree) stroke patterns. Then I use an aoto stone (roughly 3000-4000 grit) to erase those marks and refine the edge and geometry with the same diagonal stroking pattern. After this, I will go to the koma-nagura do (around... 6000 grit I believe) and start to make the polish come out better then finishing work with an uchigumori stone. I keep the diagonal stroke pattern to keep the geometry of the blade and work out a nice finish with fingerstones to bring out the hamon (which is parallel scratch patterns to the blade) which is why it looks a tiny bit better than foundation polish. Here's what I mean by the diagonal stroke patterns and different finishes. Here's scratching patterns at 1000 grit: Here's scratching patterns at around 3000 grit (aoto stone): Maybe tomorrow if I finish the aoto stone, I'll take pics of that and send you the difference between that and the nagura stone.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2012 6:58:33 GMT
wow those are really nice pics. I appreciate you taking the time to upload those for me. Say I have a katana though and it needs to be sharpened. What grit would you suggest to start off with and what grit to end with?
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Post by Jakeonthekob on Feb 5, 2012 7:26:17 GMT
Depends on the condition but I would say start at 500 to establish geometry, 1000 to start refining, and then up by 1000 grit until you hit 3000 or above for the polish that you want.
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