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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 17, 2011 0:08:40 GMT
I remember an article in "Tactical Shooter" (late 90's) written by a Canadian Military firearms instructor who related how he demonstrated to his new recruits how useless full-auto was for hitting one's target. He purposefully chose the worse shooter (sad-sack) from initial tests to prove his point. At the end of instruction, at 50 yards, he had all his trainees set the selector switch to burst/fullauto, while sad-sack sett his to semi-auto. Guess who got more shots on target? Overwhelmingly so? (Sad-sack) This reference at the TheFiringLine refers to the same article. Tactical Shooter Thread Reference. I was hoping to find the article online, but did not. I'll have to find where I stored my back issues. Only hits count. There is no substitute for aimed fire. Full-auto means missing a lot.
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Post by GUEST on Nov 17, 2011 10:11:33 GMT
The Am 180 was a jam a matic even in semi auto use, one reason you don't see them any more. Your hit at 50yds form the hip, yes it was just luck. When I was younger I shot a bird from the hip with a 22 at 15yds. ,it was just luck.
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Post by ShooterMike on Nov 17, 2011 15:41:56 GMT
I always heard luck was the intersection of skill and opportunity. Working with the glue sprayer gave you some skill, especially in relation to pointing mechanical devices that propel something at a target. The the opportunity of taking the shot allowed for that rare combination to pay off. Good for you. But for things to work reliably, do it 8 out of 10 times in a row. Then it's not luck.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Nov 17, 2011 15:48:25 GMT
agreed, if you can do it 8/10 nobody can claim fluke
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2011 16:12:42 GMT
True IMO. I think it was luck and the practice. It was memorable, because my first shot hit it and left me surprised. :shock: (there was snow on the ground and noone else at the range, so I actually saw a streak run across the snow right into the 2-liter bottle). I came across an entire set of OLD "popular mechanic's How -to" Encyclopedias the other day. Under "ammunition", it showed to drill out the back of whichever (spent)centerfire revolver round, insert a "Shotgun primer" (Should be a "209" primer IMO), then parrafin or whatever wax bullets are used for indoor shooting. It's funny because it's old and dated material, It mentioned to use them for "indoor shooting when it's too cold to go to the range". Probably hundreds could be made for cheaply, and instinct shooting would become a pattern eventually (without aiming) IMO. Seemed interesting. Oh, as for the AM 180 being a "Jammo-matic" , It doesn't seem to jam in ANY of the youtube vids( ).
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Post by Don Boogie on Nov 17, 2011 21:37:29 GMT
what is up with all the zombie madness? If there was ever gonna be a ***Zombie Acapolyp's*** my weapon of choice would be simple The AA-12 fully automatic Shotgun as my main gun,than 2 USP .45 guns and last but not least:p a razor sharp blade when you run out of bulltet's oh,and lot's of redbull to stay awake
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2011 16:32:26 GMT
Full-auto actually came about from studies that showed average soldiers were not aiming thier rifles so random hits were more common in ACTUAL combat. Yes, Personally when I trained on the M-16 back in the US Army, we were taught "One shot, one kill"..."steady ,aim,squeeze, Fire" . The three round bursts were for shooting into massed groups, or for concentrating firepower against armor, or aircraft volleys. Course my one Drill Sargeant was a Ranger involved in the actual "Black-Hawk Down" incident. The other was in the 10th Mountain Infantry (who were involved in their rescue). That's actually where they'd met. Basically the first party were popping bad-guys one after another after another...running low on ammo, etc. all night long! I found on three round burst from my M-16 it was rediculous fast rate of fire. For example at 50 meters, the first round always hit the mark. But the second would hit 75-100 meters behind, then the third for example would hit say 5 meters in front of the 50 meter target...rediculous. It's ironic probably full-auto practice would have been more helpfull to train for the three round burst , (which still can be fired fast and burn up the magazine quick). I've found an AK-47 7.62X39 fired at full-auto AT CLOSE RANGE actually looks the same as a shotgun impact, except with far more power... :shock: However the M-60 belt fed, and M-243 (Squad automatic weapon "SAW") fired full auto and could be walked to the target even, especially with tracers. The M-60 is sometimes called the "Hog" because it eats bodies. The m-243 has a two stage trigger and on full, it fires MUCH faster than the M-60. (It sounds like one single BANG , like a jet engine at times). :shock: Well anyway, when either is used with blanks and laser equipment for training , units start beeping from "kills" like crazy. Also making them valuable targets for enemy. Also the radio man's antenae is usually a straight line and ,"Nothing in nature is a straight line" usually the guy next to the radio man is a Leutenant, or officer too. My favorite .22LR has a long , thick (like bull barrel) making it quiter to me than the 10-22 ruger for example. It has NO felt recoil , so it's like shooting a pellet rifle really. I imagine without any felt recoil, full-auto .22 LR would be far more accurate than other calibers. {EDIT: ONE draw-back is yes the rimfires are MORE prone to misfires or hangfires, which is why many folks will use the expensive .25acp's over a .22LR pocket pistol for example...I still prefer .22). Off the top of my head for long range zombie shots I'd prefer: An H&K 93 (civilian version of G-3). For closer in an AK-47 style, or A-12 as mentioned (course I have a few entirely mental designs/ideas for shotguns that could hold more rounds, just lack the technical side to put them on paper as for now). For close in I'd prefer a .22LR in full auto such as a 10-22 with 50 rd.s Mag. An AM-180, OR a Calico .22LR with 100 rd.s helical feed. Helical feed BTW has been copied by a few Chinese firms which actually have 50-75 rd. helical feed Mags that "plug" into AK-47 variants...they look like grenade launchers and totally change the overall dimensions of the rifle (by shorter Magazine length)...No time to find a link right now. Got to get back to work. Let's stop these Zombies once and for all!!!! :x More later.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Nov 18, 2011 23:31:13 GMT
Gimmie my AK-47 with quick detatch scope in case i have to make long range shots, my dual 1911s for My last stand, should it come to it, My Mossberg 500 8 shot pistol grip, strapped on my backpack where i can draw it over the shoulder for close encounters, and for pure coolness factor/showing off, a Huge 2 handed Viking Great Sword. :mrgreen: backpack filled with AK Mags and Shotshells. If you cant tell from my loadout, i wont be running anywhere. Lets face it, im a fatass, i cant run 100 yards without being winded, so i might as well TANK it out and have the huge arsenal to kick hella ass before
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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 20, 2011 14:15:37 GMT
I'd like to see that study.
I found an amusing video contrasting the fire effectiveness of an AK-47 and M16 in full auto. Don't get too wrapped around the axel--it's entertainment but demonstrates what your selector switch should be set to, if you want to hit the target.
Oorah!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2011 1:49:42 GMT
For an accurate comparison, the SAME shooter should have fired both. Also, he blotched the field strip.(total BS) The AK hit the corner of the brick, but still would've done more damage/absorbtion. Anyhow, I like both weapons (the m-16 and the russian copy of the german mg- 43) (AKA: ak-47). Course the first "assualt rifle" IMo was American the .30 carbine... M-16 is great . I loved the "POP Boowd" (Freedom) sound it makes! (like a new world-order ringing out :twisted: ) Things about it bothered me...I don't like the many lug bolt (also don't like the winchesters similar)... the gas assist without piston (too much heat, dirty,...kits are available for piston conversion)... the buffer spring is bulky compared to AK, Also it's a "take-down" rifle so to pins hold the upper and lower together...these get wobly, and it's annoying as hell to shoot a wobbly rifle whether it effects accuracy or not. Perhaps that's from stupid bayonet training ...jabbing an aluminum mount against fixed solid objects (?) or from sling carry alone since it's wimpy aluminum forged...not even as rigid as stamped steel. IDK. Then the round itself...I heard a rumor one time the 5.56 was intended to wound, since it takes MORE time to move wounded and ties up the enemy, plus when one emerges to rescue another HE'LL BE SHOT AS WELL :lol: I don't think so, During the local "John Mohawkmad" sniper events almost every victim shot died despite rapid modern ambulance response. so the 5.56 is pretty lethal. Problem is : ALL it's strength is from it's velocity so short barrels diminish all it's power. with the 7.62 x39 short barrel won't diminish it's power as much AND even IF one wanted .223 performance an "accelerator" sabot could be used and still more effective with short barrel, and more capable of sub-sonic heavy bullet suppression.(silenced). M-16 is a piece of crap, that's why half the time you see one fired the shooter has half the stock ABOVE his shoulder... it's not even ergonomic or shoulder fire practical.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Nov 22, 2011 2:07:01 GMT
M16 may be more accurate, but as far as zombies goes... its no fun shooting them at 600+ meters....you cant even see the gore....gimmie an AK and well test that full auto in a zombie crowd dispersion :twisted:
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Post by DavidW on Nov 23, 2011 20:53:32 GMT
Not much of a gun buff here, but I would think that a 5.56 gun would be the best. A gun chambered for 5.56 will also readily accept .223 ammo (though won't be quite as accurate), 5.56 is common and cheap (standard cartridge used by military and police assault weapons), and lighter than 7.62. It's ballistics are also quite well. Easier recoil/kickback than 7.62 as well.
.22 would not be my personal preference, simply because it will be less effective against raiders. IMO, raiders will be a bigger threat than the slow moving, dumb zombies. However, I do think .22 would be excellent for siege defense. As it is cheap as dirt, lightweight, and takes up less space than larger rounds, you can easily stockpile it in your house or wherever. It's quiet and has little recoil, so when defending a place, you have less risk of attracting more zombies and raiders, so you can stay in that fortress of yours a bit longer without interference. If possible, I'd take a .22 gun that is quite compact like the AR-7 and use it in conjunction with a 5.56 rifle like an AR-15 or the Kel Tec SU-16D for compactness. Ultimate compromise. Use .22 for a small group of zombies in an area that may have many more zombies lurking about (.22 miniscule sound will reduce the chance that you get swarmed) and use 5.56 for raiders and against a large number of zeds. Oh, and get an extended magazine for the .22
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Post by Anachro12 on Nov 24, 2011 23:30:36 GMT
Wow no one has mentioned .45auto! A great cartridge, small, accurate, manageable recoil, widely available. There is a reason that people use it in pin shooting competitions. And the 1911 is still one of the best handguns around. I have a springfield armory single stack but if capacity is an issue they do make 13+1's for double stack. Or you could go with a glock and extended mags. I would have a kriss super V and share mags between my glock and the super V. SuperV's have ridiculously low recoil.
Yeah I would want a large caliber rifle as well for those longer shots. Right now I am debating between my AR-10 and my AK. I have 3 74 round drums for the AK so that might tilt the choice in favor of that one. Either would do the trick nicely though.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Nov 25, 2011 2:16:35 GMT
My "Loadout" is a Springfield 1911A-1 Mil Spec with 5, 10 round power mags (1 in gun, 4 in pouch) and my Rommy AK-47 with 5, 30 round mags (1 in gun, 4 in pouch) In my backpack on backup i have 5 more 1911 Mags, 6 AK Mags, My mossberg 500 with 2 Boxes of Reduced Recoil Law enforcement Buckshot, and various things like fire-starters, water purifier, Gas Mask with 2 extra filters, and various other things i saw fit to stuff in to my bag. Sound Heavy? Hell Yes it is. But i won't be hoofing it, that's what 4 wheelers and god forbid...Horses are for, and if it came down to having to hoof it id die anyway since i cant even walk 2 miles with nothing but gym shorts and a tshirt :lol: Lets hope i have fuel for the 4 wheeler...Its been forever since i rode a horse, and im not sure id even remember HOW. hahahhaha I also have a duffel/Drag bag with my "Sniper Rifle" Set-up all there, but that's just if the situation allows me to drive a vehicle where i can carry all that semprini. I don't have far to go...about 10 miles to the bug out location, down alot of back roads that literally nobody but the 3-5 farmers between here and there ever drive on. So multiple trips would be possible under ideal circumstances. Probably sounds like i'm over doing it on the weapons, but consider this. If semprini went off right now, all the gun factories, walmarts, internet suppliars, they are all gone. all you have for the rest of your life is what you have. As for me? i want all the guns and ammo i can get. Not just for dealing with raiders, zombies, and Godzilla, but bullets make fine trading material...ever wonder why in the old west they called a glass of whiskey a "shot"? you could trade One bullet for a "Shot" of whiskey.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Nov 25, 2011 14:13:18 GMT
Saito, you cannot have too much ammo. Allow me to sing the praises of 22lr, an extra Ruger 10/22 or another S&W 22 SA HG. A couple of Marlin 22lr bolt guns for barter wouldn't hurt. I see that the days of a block of 22lr for $15 are long past. 5000 round cases are anywhere from $250 to $300 for 40gr/1280fps fodder. 22lr, the coin of the new millennium. I've got no place to bug out to, yet. And I live down here on aztlan's main highway. If the crunch happens before I complete my preparations, I'm just going to have to leave them stacked like cord wood out in front of the house. The smell may discourage. (Note to self: need to buy a few more bags of quick lime).
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Post by Anachro12 on Nov 25, 2011 15:39:04 GMT
It is true that even if you don't want to use .22lr as zombie killing ammo it would be highly useful in many situations, discouraging looters, hunting game, bartering. A little off topic but one of my ideas for a new military weapon would be a p90 style .22lr suppressive wepon that would have 100rd mags. It is amazing the ammo that could be carried by one person. It would be useful for suppression and save the 5.56 and 7.62 used by the squad. It would be great in a MOUT situation and would be greatly useful against lightly armored opponents in a building clearing situation. The rounds would not go through walls as easily and endanger friendlies like a 5.56.
As to the Z.Apocalypse I dont have a 22lr rifle but I do have a .22lr Sig/hammereli trailside target pistol and a .22lr conversion for my 1911. I just think that the availability if the ammo would make someone a fool for not carrying something that could use it.
I have always wanted one of those thompson contenders that have the exchangeable barrels. Yeah it is a one shot gun but would be valuable as you could use as many types of ammo as you have barrels for.
One of the hardest decisions would be to decide on which rifle I would carry personally as I love them all. I love the AR-10, I love my AK but need to get one of those side scope mounts. But I would really love to carry my M1 carbine. I feel like it was one of the most underrated guns of WWII. I have 500 rds of ammo for it and that is the problem. Availability. That is the primary reason why 9mm, .45, .308, and 5.56 would make such great caliber choices. Availability. The same goes for .22lr but I would hesitate to trust it to reliably crack a braincase. But the amount of ammo you could carry would make a good case for that round as well!
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Post by Odingaard on Nov 27, 2011 14:43:18 GMT
5.56mm and 9mm here.
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Post by caferacer on Dec 23, 2011 1:45:13 GMT
.45 ACP model 1911, the all American #1 ZOMBIE stopping champion! and my 30-30 WINCHESTER model 94 for them pesky perimeter ZOMBIE'S
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