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Post by Miekka on Aug 18, 2011 8:37:33 GMT
It's about that time in my life that I've been expanding my interests beyond classical shotguns, bolt-actions, and of course the 10/22, so I'm looking for opinions on what you fine folks believe would be an all around good, reliable rifle for various purposes ranging from camping to worst case scenario. The catch however is that I am currently living in a "wonderful" state that still has the assault weapons ban in place.
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Post by GUEST on Aug 18, 2011 9:18:59 GMT
Know you problaby can't do it, but move to a better state.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Aug 18, 2011 13:56:56 GMT
LOL! I was thinking that too when I read the OP.
Move to a more weapons friendly location then get yourself a good rifle. If you like AR rifles get a DPMS AR-15 and buy a couple of different uppers for it - get the AR-15 with an upper for 5.56NATO (so you can shoot mil-surplus ammo or .223 Win without concern of damage) then purchase a .22lr upper (or just get the conversion kit) and get another upper in a larger caliber (my current favorite is the .450 Bushmaster but I'm really starting to like what I read about the .30 RAR).
You can get a .22lr upper for between $300 and $500 (just depends on how hard you look) and you can get a .22lr drop-in conversion kit for the 5.56 upper for around $200. The larger caliber uppers go between $500 and $700. Once you get all this though you've got one rifle that can be set up for small game and target practice (.22lr) to light game and self defense (5.56NATO/.223 Win) to medium (.30 RAR or .450 Bushmaster) and possibly even large game (.50 Beowulf) with the push of a couple of pins.
Ideally I'd get a whole rifle chambered in each of the rounds you want but if you want one rifle to do it all its this way - and if you absolutely can only get 1 rifle with 1 chambering then get the AR-15 chambered in 5.56NATO. That'll suffice for larger small game (like raccoon, coyote etc.) to light skinned medium game (up to deer size with well placed shots) and also work for self defense in a SHTF situation. Ammo is still not too expensive and a rifle loaded with 30 rds of FMJ is still fairly light.
EDIT: Can't forget the venerable AK system too. An AK isn't going to be as accurate as an AR but its a tough and robust system - capable of being severely abused and still functioning well.
Of course everything I've just talked about could be illegal in your state so as Fallen said - move first. lol.
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Post by demonskull on Aug 18, 2011 14:27:58 GMT
The ban refers to "assault" weapons made after the ban went into effect in 94. Pre 94 "assault" rifles and even pre mags are exempt. There are still a bunch of used M1 carbines around that can be had for a resoanable price. While not in the same class as today's "assault" rifles, they will still provide an excellent advantage over other systems in a "Assault Ban" state.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Aug 18, 2011 16:33:43 GMT
It depends on the state that he lives in. Some states (like Mass. and NJ) outright prohibit the ownership of assault type rifles (which happens to include the M1 Carbine). Their laws predate the 94 Ban. California has its own restrictions on assault type rifles which are just ridiculous in their own right.
There are a few other states that have just as restrictive laws. Depending on the state you live in even an M1 might be illegal to purchase now. I understand that it is not always possible to relocate especially just for the purpose of being able to get certain types of weapons so sometimes if you want to get a good all around rifle you're just plain SOL.
Now I have been doing some thinking and it is possible to get a California legal SKS (which also happens to be Canada legal and of course legal in all - I think so you'd have to research to be sure - other states in the US). The SKS, while not the ideal, would be a decent all around rifle. Accuracy isn't on par with say an AR-15 but its 7.62x39 round packs a good punch out to 100+ yards and is a fairly accurate rifle. Semi-auto with a 10rd internal mag (Ca. legal rifles cannot sport a detachable mag or a mag with a larger capacity) means you have quick follow-up shots. Again its not the ideal but well it'll do in the absence of something that is legally owned and would fit the bill better.
Be careful with the SKS though I'd heard talk of Illinois wanting to ban the SKS and its variants... of course I've also heard talk of places like California and Illinois along with a few other places wanting to ban every high powered auto loading rifle. That has yet to happen and hopefully won't. Me I'll just make sure to stay out of places like that and restrict my business in such hostile territory to a minimum.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Aug 18, 2011 17:33:40 GMT
Couple/three questions:
(1) What is the maximum range you want to reliably hit? (2) Man sized targets or small/medium game? (3) How many targets might you need to engage within the critical time period?
Some recommendations:
(1) If your max range is 200 yards, then a lever rifle in 44mag might suffice.
(2) If your max range is 300 yards, then a level rifle in 30-30 might suffice (or better a Browning level rifle (BLR) in 308Win or 243Win if you can find one!)
(3) If you do not need to mount a scope (easily), then a military pattern surplus rifle in 7.62Nato, 8mm Mauser, 7mm Mauser or 30-60 might be considerations.
(4) Ruger is coming out with a new Scout Rifle -- haven't seen one yet, but it would be my next rifle.
(5) If you must have a semi-auto, and do not already own one, Garands are still available and do not fall under assault-weapons bans.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Aug 18, 2011 17:59:19 GMT
If you are talking about California, then you must have registered them with State in order to grandfather them in. No new so-called "assault weapons" (that's the correct nomenclature) and high-cap mags can enter the State. I do not believe the law makes provision for their transfer after the death of the original owner--but I not longer live in CA and am not up on these particulars.
Of course, mags typically do not have date of manufacture on them, so who's to know whether they were manufacture AFTER the Jan 1, 2000 SB 23 ban went into effect?
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Post by ShooterMike on Aug 18, 2011 18:19:08 GMT
Assuming I had to live in a state that prohibits semi-auto rifles with detachable box magazines, I would be taking some of Larry's advice and looking at: An M1 Garand
An older Winchester model 94 in .30-30
An older Marlin lever-action in .30-30
Having a Mauser '98 built into a scout-type sporter rifle, sans any scope mount, having ghost ring sights, in .308 or .30-06 (and get some stripper clips)
A Marlin Model 1895 or Browning "Winchester Model 1886 clone", lever-action chambered in .45-70
A Marlin Model 1894, or a "Winchester Model 1892 clone" made by either Browning or Rossi, lever-action chambered in .357 or .44 Magnum[/list:u]
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Post by Larry Jordan on Aug 18, 2011 20:59:33 GMT
The Jeff Cooper "Scout Rifle" o chambered in a centerfire cartridge using spitzer bullet design (problematic in a tube magazine) o 5+round detachable magazines o intermediate eye relief (2x power) scope Authoritative at 300 yards. Also capable of shooting trap(!), or so say the graduates of Gunsite.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Aug 18, 2011 21:35:29 GMT
That's a beaut of a rifle Larry - I think I've seen a pic of that rifle in another thread. Didn't you shoot out to 800yds with it or something?
Yes in a situation where you want to be compliant with local/state laws that particular rifle is a great option. Otherwise the M1 as stated before is a good option for a semi-auto.
I must admit I had completely forgotten about a good lever gun. I have a lever action in .44mag and I absolutely love it! I take it deer hunting with me every year and its my go to gun when hunting in brush and thick terrain. Its never failed me yet. I should have mentioned a lever 30-30. Simple, effective and relatively easy to acquire ammo. Put a long eye relief scope on it like what you have on your scout rifle and you've got quite a capable rifle... that reminds me I really should find myself a long eye relief scope for my lever .44mag.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Aug 19, 2011 12:12:32 GMT
The Scout is fast on out to 300 yards. I have an LRPR rig set up for long range work which has a similar, warm, laminate stock. 10 years ago Marlin was selling a version of the 1894 with a 16" ported barrel. Here it is in profile with a Remington Model 7 (20" lightweight): As you can see, it's handy. I take these two with me when I have to visit the wild west (CA).
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Aug 19, 2011 12:37:16 GMT
Those are two nice looking rifles there Larry.
That Marlin is nice too - I've always liked lever guns. So ported barrel with a hooded front sight huh? That's nice. I have a Henry's Big Boy with the bright brass receiver and hex barrel but plain jane horn style rear and simple blade front sights. She's a nice gun but I'd been telling myself for years now I should get a low to mid power scope on her. An old friend of mine harasses me every time I mention putting a scope on that rifle - "Something just ain't right 'bout puttin a scope on a lever gun... its like goin back to the old west an puttin ray-bans on a cowboy. Does it make it better, yes but does it look right, no."
As for visiting CA - I haven't been to CA for nearly 10 yrs and if its another 10 yrs before I have to go back there it'll be too soon unless the political environment there changes (a lot!). I have lots of family there too but my strong distaste for how things are run there keep me out of the state. I'm just glad I don't have any relatives there that I like enough to go to that state. The last of those relatives died almost 10 yrs ago.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Aug 19, 2011 13:47:21 GMT
Preservation
I think I agree with your friend--the Henry has classic looks that should be preserved. I can't think of a better reason to get a Marlin which is already set up for scope mounting.
Compliance
I left CA ('95), but I too still have family there. When I visit, I work hard at being "compliant". Since I cannot have 13+1 in my Glock23 (40S&W), I opt instead for 6+1 in a Glock36 (45ACP). Since I cannot have 20 (or 30) in an AR15 (223Rem), I opt instead for 8+1 in a Marlin 1894 (44 Mag). I'm sure this was not the intent of the AW ban, but "downsizing" and "up-gunning" it is the unintended consequence.
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Aug 19, 2011 14:21:37 GMT
Preservation - I secretly agree and thus I've talked about it but never gone ahead and put a scope on the rifle. As for getting a Marlin and putting a scope on it that's not in the picture unless I win one like I did the last rifle I got.
Compliance - I fully understand downsizing and up-gunning to comply with the ban. Prior to the federal ban's sunset I refused to buy 9mm and 40S&W pistols, opting instead for the .45acp pistols instead or a .44mag revolver. Luckily for me my rifles were all pre-ban and had been grandfathered in so that wasn't an issue for me. Now that the ban had sunsetted I'm now considering looking at some of the double-stack .45 pistols that are available after the ban. I still love the .45acp round but it sure would be nice to have a few more rounds in the mag. In regards to CA its not just their gun laws that keep me out of there. Its a lot of other things regarding their governing of the state, mindset etc. that keeps me out too. I kind of look at CA as if I were looking at another country really. If I don't agree with the laws and/or political environment there I just won't go there.
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Post by ShooterMike on Aug 20, 2011 15:19:05 GMT
While we're posting pictures of suggestions, here's a pic of mine. Top: Marlin Model 1894 (mid-70s production) .44 Magnum with shortened barrel/magazine tube and XS SIght Systems ghost ring sights. Bottom: Chech VZ-24 Mauser (WWII-vintage '98 action) with lightweight fluted .30-06 barrel, XS ghost ring sights and scout scope mount. Notice lack of EER scope. I don't care for 'em. Also note, two 5-rd stripper clips of spare ammo. I find stripper clips in a Mauser action to be faster and more reliable than most bolt-action's detachable magazines. It also allows for much quicker "topping-off" of single rounds into a partially depleted magazine. Click to enlarge to 1280p width
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Post by GUEST on Aug 20, 2011 15:35:47 GMT
Looks like a few of us have the Marlin 1984 rifle. Won't post a picture of my nothing special just a standard one made in the 80's with the cross bolt saftery. Known some people won't like th saftery I kind of do, I can keep the hammer back with the saftery on.
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Post by Miekka on Aug 21, 2011 0:26:54 GMT
Firstly, thanks to all of you for your suggestions for such a troublesome question. I really do wish moving was an option (haha).
Out of curiosity, does anyone have experience with Ruger's Mini 14 or 30? I've heard that the older models were largely inaccurate, but they've since boosted the accuracy. Any experience you folks could offer would be greatly appreciated. Would it be a good reliable rifle that is still fairly accurate at 150 yards and not a pain in terms of maintenance and reliability?
As a larger rifle, does anyone have experience with the Springfield M1A Scout in terms of its reliability, ease of maintenance, and accuracy?
It sounds like most people are suggesting a good lever action, and the side ejection of the Marlins seems appealing to me. Plus I am more drawn to revolvers than semi autos, so having a rifle that uses interchangeable ammunition is very appealing...
Mike, given my interest in the reliable M14/Garand action, do you have any suggests in who sells a good M1 Garand?
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Sam H
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Post by Sam H on Aug 21, 2011 1:35:26 GMT
The Mini-14 was on my short list of firearms to purchase when I could but now its no longer on my list of firearms to get because of my having gotten an AR-15. I'd always heard good things about them especially after they redesigned the receiver and sights in 2008. Even prior to that though I'd always heard they were good reliable firearms - accurate, fairly easy to maintain and very easy to modify to one's tastes and desires. I'd heard it referred to often as the poor man's AR. If I'm not mistaken they come from the factory with scope bases now - something that older models didn't have. I heard the Mini-30 is a good rifle too. Same action etc. chambered in 7.62x39. That round is not to be underestimated - it can deliver a good punch downrange and I'd read that with some work can be reloaded to be a very hard hitting and reliable sub-sonic round.
I can't offer any information about the M1 aside from that I'd had a chance to put a few hundred rounds through one and frankly I really like them as a rifle but they were never really on my list of guns to get. I don't know why - just never decided I wanted one enough to get one. As such I didn't research enough into them to know enough to talk about them.
Getting a lever gun chambered in the same caliber as your revolver is a good idea. That's why I have my Henry in .44mag. I have a Taurus revolver in .44mag and I love being able to go into the woods with two firearms but not having to carry two different types of ammo. It also gives me a good excuse to stock more ammo in that particular chambering.
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Post by Bogus on Aug 22, 2011 4:53:58 GMT
I used to live in California, but the local commissars were too busy cooking up new flavors of public sector paternalism to worry about the 12+ percent unemployment--which included me--so now I don't live there anymore. Y'all aren't missing much...
Anyway, I would recommend a good solid bolt like the Rem 700, chambered in one of the popular calibers. Lever would work too, if you're more interested in rate of fire than per-shot accuracy. Maybe I missed it, did the OP mention which people's republik he lives in? They all have various implementations and what's okay in one may not be in another.
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Post by Onimusha on Aug 22, 2011 7:17:27 GMT
I am the proud owner of an m1 garand. If you have one set up right, you really can't beat it. If you can find someone to refurbish it and set it up right, it is as reliable as an ak and more accurate than the average AR. I got a grenade launching model made by springfield armory. The barrel was so shot out that the only way you could tell there was rifling was to shine a bright light down the barrel. Even in that condition, it shot 2MOA groups with surplus M2 ball. I've since had it rebarreled in 7.62 NATO with a criterion barrel (cost: $179). It now shoots one ragged hole at 100 yards. When I have it bedded in a new stock, I'm taking it out to 1000 yards. You really can't go wrong with one. The clips are only $1 or $2 each and will work for both the .308 and the .30-06.
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