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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2012 21:41:59 GMT
Yes, I am familiar with that thread. If you had read it closely, you would have noted that the main participants (i.e. Thomas Chen, Scott Rodell) were careful to observe that much of the source material was speculative, and that the long two-handed swords of the pre-Ching periods could not definitively be considered jian, because they were larger, heavier, and had very different handling characteristics. Examples from the Han Dynasty were among known types of two-handed swords.
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Post by ineffableone on Feb 2, 2012 21:57:49 GMT
Umm if you read that thread carefully you will see there is only one post that carefully points out that specific material was speculative.
The thread does point out other examples of two handed jian in historical use.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2012 22:14:29 GMT
IMO, Thomas Chen is just as good, if not better, as a resource than Scott Rodell (no disrespect to Mr. Rodell). Scott is a martial artist whose discipline is focused mainly on forms and techniques developed during the Ching Period. Thomas' research is more archeological and historical in nature, going all the way back to China's Bronze Age.
Perhaps I'm approaching this discussion from the wrong perspective. I should have posed the question:
"Is a double-edged Chinese sword necessarily a jian, regardless of its length, weight and dimensions?"
If you believe the answer is 'yes', then it's up to you what you wish to call it.
I believe the answer is 'no' -- having a double-edged blade doesn't make a Chinese sword a jian. That's my opinion. You're entitled to your own opinion.
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Post by Opferous on Feb 2, 2012 22:17:35 GMT
Mainly an issue of terminology here. If we use "jian" and "dao" as generic terms like in the west we throw around "sword" and "saber," then sure, there were two-handed dual-edged swords in Chinese history. If we choose to be more specific and use "jian" as a classification for a specific paradigm of Chinese sword, then you can't really count the shuangshou jian in that paradigm, as Ty has pointed out.
A rough example in Western terms would be like throwing out the term "broadsword" to mean a basket-hilt but mixing it up with arming swords. Or using katana to mean any saber-like object because of the kanji when it's understood to fit a specific category.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2012 22:23:57 GMT
Thanks, James. I apologize to the participants in this thread for my abrupt tone. This topic has a lot of subjective points that relate to semantics and interpretation. We can agree to disagree, since absolutes are few and far in between in real terms.
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Post by Cole Chang on Feb 3, 2012 0:40:03 GMT
Hey guys, just for the record, when I said that it seemed a little heavy, it's more to to my lack of strength in my forearms...I'm not a big guy!
I don't have the ability to weigh the sword properly yet. I know I asked for the sword to be around 2lbs, but I also wanted a longer than average handle which Garrett said would add a bit to the weight. For now, these are my impressions...the sword is similar in overall weight to the Hanwei Cutting Jian. It seems to have a bit more blade presence but I think that may be due to the slimmer grip. The HCJ just felt really fat in my hand. Also, the blade seems either thicker or more rigid than the HCJ. Remember , these are just my impressions...
I put a hard binder packed with paper propped up against the wall and I casually stabbed it with a few swords. My katanas all went in without any flex. My Hanwei Tacky Wacky did too. My Pratical Tai Chi flexed like an aluminum ruler and failed to penetrate even the slightest. My Xin Jin only had a bit of flex and pierced the hollow part of the binder near the rings like it was hot butter. It did not go too far into the paper packed part. In fact, the only sword I had that pierced through the deepest into the paper packed part was my CS Smallsword - which I don't have anymore. Remember this was a casual thrust!
I'm not set up for anything more!
Cole
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Post by Gundoggy on Feb 13, 2012 8:47:06 GMT
Jian/gim weighing 1.5 lbs typically were the shorter ones with blades around 24" long.
The Chang Jian...blades around 27"-31" long typically weigh between 1.8 lbs to 2 lbs +. Exceptions do exist, I have a large 'Village jian' with a weight over 2.5", still balanced for one handed use, with very hard steel on the edge.
Ty N. is correct that most modern reproductions of jian are typically overweight and not balanced properly. Two jian with the same POB can feel radically different in play if the weight distribution is different. The best antiques have a certain liveliness that can be felt when practicing historical cuts and moves, very few modern replicas can match this liveliness. The Hanwei cutting jian in my opinion is a disappointment, there were changes to the original concept of that replica and the blade geometry on that jian is still quite flat.
You could do a lot worse than Jin-Shi. Garrett has attended seminars with Scott Rodell and has handled multiple antiques. He knows what a good jian should feel and play like. The newer Jin-shi swords are available with historical clamshell geometry as a result of his study of antique jian with different geometries.
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Post by HouShe on Feb 15, 2012 3:50:16 GMT
I'm going to chime in here. This is not a matter of opinion. Your "opinion" or "belief" is wrong. No ifs, no buts. Flat out wrong.
The same way that dao is used for everything from scissors, to kitchen knives, to various single edges swords and polearms. These are all 'dao'. The difference is in both cases, jian and dao, that when spoken correctly the Chinese have prefixes to the 'jian' and 'dao' which define them.
What you claim is the only correct interpretation of the jian is a 'changjian'. Because it's the most common by far, the suffix has been dropped out of laziness in colloquial speech. Not that everything else is not a jian.
A short example, I do a 'jian' form: I use a changjian for it. I could also perform the exact same form with a duanjian (a shorter, one handed jian). I would have to make modifications to the form if I wished to utilise a shuangshoujian. But fortunately, there are shuangshoujian forms out there, specifically designed for their characteristics.
Dao, it's even easier. From Peter Dekker:
But these include the Liuyedao and Yanmaodao. Both military dao of the period. Because of the different blade profiles of the various Dao, they were all given different names, however, they are ALL dao. I'm not even going to bother with the various different single edged polearms or Dadao etc.
Just because you have an opinion, does not mean you understand the usage of the various Chinese languages. The terms are transported into English.
But in essence. Jian just means sword (with two edges). If it's a sword with two edges, it's a Jian. Doesn't matter if it's from the Republican Period, the Han dynasty or anywhere inbetween. They are all Jian.
Shuangshoujian, changjian, duanjian, shoujian. et al.
Edit: Fixed a formatting error.
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Post by HouShe on Feb 15, 2012 3:57:05 GMT
As for weighting and balance. The balance comes down to the individual swords. However, antiques from the Qing Dynasty range between 750g and 1250g (Which in the Imperial system is 1.65lbs and 2.756lbs respectively). One of the finest handling antiques I have ever felt was 1125g, or 2.48lbs. It flew through the air like a dream. Why? Because its weight distribution was perfect and you wouldn't think it was nearly that horrific "2.5lbs" from holding it in your hand. Seeing it on a scale is the easiest way to believe it.
2lbs is actually rather light for a jian. Of course, if you're used to wushu blades, then that would explain the heavy feeling you get. Same as modern fencing masters claim that historical rapiers are 'too heavy'.
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Post by Sir Tre on Feb 15, 2012 4:12:27 GMT
what my sifu did for my weak wrist was have me work forms with a framing hammer... kinda like an olympic runner wearing combat boots to train then wearing sneakers to compete. what i found was a strengthening of my wrists right where they were needed in form, and was amazed at how light my sword felt when i picked it up for practice.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2012 4:34:26 GMT
HouShe is correct with the Chinese descriptions, I've asked my friend who's Chinese about these words before, and they confirm that's correct. In casual language, every single edged blade is a dao, and double is a jian. When properly described, they have a prefix which defines what type of single or double edged blade it is. That's just the Chinese language. Some of my favourite blades - the Guan Dao, just means "Guan's knife", and refers to the halberd used by the famous general Guan Yu. it's proper name though is yan yue dao 偃月刀 which means "reclining moon blade". The dadao, a Chinese greatsword or saber, means "big knife" 大刀 Using the words jian and dao loosely is like saying sabre or double edged sword, but we can then specify that its a US cavalry sabre, or medieval broadsword.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2012 16:29:17 GMT
I stand corrected, and thank you for the clarification. I think one of the fundamental differences between Chinese sword typology and European sword typology is that, with European swords, we have the benefit of Ewart Oakeshott's ground-breaking typology system, which is numerical and does not require one to understand the nuances of a particular language. Chinese typology is like the Chinese language -- vast and abundant, but not particularly easy to translate, and subject to misleading variances when translated. It's like the difference between memorizing 26 letters of the English alphabet versus 5,000 to 80,000+ Chinese characters.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2012 17:04:25 GMT
Thanks, though I note that 'medieval broadsword' is a very broad (joke) term that, like 'jian', could mean a lot of different types with a wide range of variance.
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Post by HouShe on Feb 16, 2012 21:02:51 GMT
Just as a side note, I was speaking with Peter Dekker the other day and apparently in original Chinese sources, they referred to a German Straightsword as a "deguojian". What the 'deguo' means, I have no idea. My Mandarin is very basic at the moment.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2012 1:02:52 GMT
I looked it up, Mandarin (Pinyin): dé guó is Germany. So deguojian is German sword!
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Post by Cole Chang on Feb 17, 2012 10:58:29 GMT
Weird! I posted the same thing but my post didn't go through!
Cole
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