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Post by rammstein on Jan 23, 2007 2:41:23 GMT
by the way, if anyone here is truly interested about the longbow and wants to read an amazing series of novels about a fictional archer in the hundred years war, pick up the "Grail Quest" series by bernard cornwell. It's also known as the "Thomas of Hookton" series. Amazingly readable books, and incredibly accurate details. I just finished the 3 novels recently. Battles include the siege of La Roche Derrien, Neville's Cross, and Crecy.
CAVEAT:
It's not something you'd want your ten year old to pick up though. Quite a bit of Blood, sex, gore, and rapes.
In order the books are:
Archer's Tale Vagabond Heretic
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2007 20:30:21 GMT
Hi Mike. Thanks for the correction on th .22 cal speed. I confussed the .22 cal with my Riffled BB gun. I will post a link in the cafe on my BB gun. I am sure some people will find it interesting. Here are some stats I dug up on the .22 cal: .22 cal bullet (Calculated using Ingalls' table) Bullet Weight ......... 40 grains Bullet Caliber ........ 0.224 Sectional Density ..... 0.114 Coefficient of Form ... 0.791 Effective Bal. Coeff... 0.144 Bal. Coeff. at STP .... 0.144 Cross wind ............ 10.0 m.p.h. Altitude .............. 0 Ft. Atmospheric pressure .. 30.00 in. Temperature ........... 60.0 F You can see more info here: yarchive.net/gun/maximum_range.htmlI was interested in finding the bullets weight. Just the part that leaves the gun, not the casing and gunpowder. It says it is about 40 grains. . So comparing the momentum of a .22 to a 700 grain arrow: momentum = mass x velocity .22 (40 grain) cal bullet.......40 x 1000 = 40,000 700 grain arrow..................700 x 400 = 280,000 dam, I would rather be shot with a .22 lol I looked up the military issue 5.56 mm. 62 grain head and velocity at 2985 fps More info here: www.olive-drab.com/od_firearms_ammo_556mm.php5.56 mm...........62 x 2985 = 185,070 arrow..............700 x 400 = 280,000 Mike check my links over to make sure I did not misinterpet any of the stats, but it looks to me like a good heavy longbow kicks $emprini. Mike you said you might want to look into getting a bow. be sure to check out www.woodbows.com You can get a 50 lb'er for about $80. You just have to waterproof it.You can get arrows for another $60 at www.rosecityarchery.com/
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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 23, 2007 23:07:34 GMT
Tsafa, You are spot-on with all observations. Just a little more on the .22 LR. There are basically 3 different common types of standard .22 LR ammo readily available, plus a bazillion specialty rounds. But basically, there's the 40 grain solid you mention, the same basic bullet in hollow point configuration usually weighs 37 grains, and the hypervelocity designs that run 27-29 grains. The Hypervelocity stuff would be things like CCI Stinger, Remington YellowJacket, and a few others. They push these little bullets really fast, something like 1,350-1,400 fps. With the standard weight (37-40 grain bullets) you have two different velocity loadings. The "standard" or "target" loads are designed to exit the barrel slower than the speed of sound, i.e. subsonic. This means they don't have to decelerate back through the sound barrier, which causes projectiles to yaw and at least temporarily become a bit unstable. These are likely what you were referring to. But this ammo is now the least common of the three. The high-velocity loadings with these same bullets are now the most common .22 ammo available. They start the 37-40 bullets at about 1,200 fps from rifle barrels. Your observations about the 5.56 very well reflect what's happening in Afghanistan and Iraq. It's a fairly anemic round as rifles go. The civilian equivalent, the .223 Remington, is not legal to hunt deer-sized game with in most states, due to lack of lethality. And the arrows you are referring to would be good choices for game much larger than typical deer. It's funny that people don't really appreciate bows and arrows for the amount of energy they actually deliver on target. When you break these things down to their core components, just about every weapon performs the same function. It delivers energy into a target (opponent) to damage and disrupt the function of that target's cardiovascular and central nervous systems. After all, there are really only two ways of permanently disabling an opponent. To put it clinically, you either overload/damage the central nervous system or you lower the blood pressure until they loose consciousness. Arrows are pretty darned good at doing both. After reading this, I'm actually considering getting a traditional longbow like yours. I really like being able to switch hands and shoot the bow right and left handed. That's how I train with handguns, shotguns and rifles. It only makes sense to do the same with a bow. And the deal on arrows at Rose City Archery looks good too. Thanks for the info. and inspiration.
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Post by rammstein on Jan 23, 2007 23:20:27 GMT
Shootermike, I know you have some experience with this some I'm asking you (not being pmed for the benifit of other people seeing this, incase they're interested, too) Can you hunt boar with a traditional longbow? Is it legal? If the answer to both are yes, could (in your normal vivid descriptions of the boar hunting process ) describe the best way to get the job done?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2007 1:43:15 GMT
Mike, I sure appreciate the expert info you bring to this forum on modern ammo and weapons, it far exceeds my knowledge. I would love to here regular posts on on various topics you would like to cover. If it is something you think you would like to do, we can ask Paul to create a modern weapons section somewhere and focus on that too.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 24, 2007 2:36:21 GMT
Rammstein,
I am sure the laws vary from state to state. Except for migratory game bird and endangered species, state law governs most hunting activities. That said, I am not aware of any states that prohibit bow hunting. And in most states, feral hogs are considered a nuisance and can be killed by any and all humane means. As far as methods, I can think of several methods that would be totally dictated by terrain and availability of suitable hunting dogs. But I am certainly no expert in this area. I've only been hog hunting on about 10 different occasions. And I've only killed about 13 wild hogs.
Tsafa,
Thank you for the flattery. As far as modern weapons posts...hmmm. I guess if you guys want it in the Off-Topic area, maybe as a sibling of the Cafe? I guess I wouldn't mind posting some things, as long as I don't come off as "Mr. Know-it-all". I seem to always have more fun listening to (reading) others' thoughts. I don't know if it would be a big hit on this site, but you never know, eh?
I haven't seen a lot of "gun guys" hanging out here. And that's not why I'm here. I'm here due to my recent overwhelming infatuation with...guess what?...A hint...it starts with "S" and it's a "word". ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2007 4:35:47 GMT
Yes Mike, sounds like a great subject for the off topic area. You can pick whatever you feel like talking about and post as often as you like. It will make this forum all the more interesting. Also keep in mind that the majority of members don't post but just read, so there will be a lot more people interested then you think.
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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 7, 2007 17:19:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2007 16:56:24 GMT
Thanks Mike. I am already a member in that forum. I have have not been active there for a few weeks but I have participated in some very interesting discusions in the past. I think that is an excellant forum for heavy longbow enthusiants.
I posted a link to my webpage their a while ago and did some modifications based on expert feedback that I got.
I am waiting for the spring so I can get back on the feild and start shooting arrows again. I am planning on buying a new 130 lb bow by then.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 0:49:18 GMT
I know this topic is slightly old but i saw you guys talking about traditional mongol and scythian bows and whatnot and thought you might be interested in this website; www.wildwoodarchery.com.au/mongol_bow.shtmlnow it is an australian website but the bows look very high quality, i also found another website that has bows made of wood with a bamboo core, specifically i was looking at the longbow on there. It's been years since i shot a bow so i might have to get back into it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2007 11:04:50 GMT
Thanks for the link Bloodwraith. No post is ever too old around here.
Those guys are not cheap by any means. Buying Mongol bows is very tricky because we don't have much detail on how they made them. They where a closely guarded secret within families. Last I heard the tention came primarily from ox tendon. I have heard of other animal tendons used too. The mongol bows were only pulled a short distance so they had to have extrem tention in that short distance. It is really dificult to judge modern reproductions because they are made to such low draw weigths, compared to historical bows. Modern mongol bows have been designed around a 35 to 60 lb draw. The question is can that draweight be brought up to 120 to 130 lbs. I have asked a number of bowyers for such a bow. Non so far feel confident that they can pruduce such a bow and maintain their level of quality. There just aren't enough archers interested in pulling such heavy bows to warrent the research, development and mass production.
Longbows, by comparison, are easy. The only component is the center of a yew tree. Other trees where sometimes used too. Again modern longbows have been fine tuned to 35 to 65 lb draw weights. Few bowyers have experiance with 120 to 160 lb bows. But there seem to be more willing to make heavy longbows because they are easier to work with. Most charge insane amounts of money for this, $700 to $1000. I have found one guy who does it for $250 but he has modified the design from the original in order to acheive the heavy draw weight.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2007 17:39:16 GMT
A little something about the Turkish bow. Turkish bow is powerful is so powerful because not only it is recurved but it is also a composite bow. "Some Mongolian composite bows are known to have been able to produce a draw weight of nearly 160 lb. That can be compared to the approximately 80–180 pounds of the European Longbow which was about twice as long." copied from wikipedia. A mongolian bow is also a composite bow. These short bows are strong because they are made of several layers of strong yet flexible materials such as bufallo horns, bones, antlers (not the whole thing just shavings) also sinew. They are glued together using fish maw. From my understanding, the gluing is done by boiling it, which also makes the horn, bone and antlers to be flexible yet not breakable. If you want to see a mongol bow do check this website www.markland.org/media/mongolarcher.jpg
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Post by rammstein on Jun 19, 2007 17:46:39 GMT
Ryan, Akuzokuzan and I have had interesting discussion on this - my conclusion was that there is no way humanly possible for a 160 lb bow to be fired from horseback. The only way the egnlish were able to accomplish this even on foot was because of exceptional and static footing. On horseback this footing is almost nonexistant - even the stirrup can't cure it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2007 22:41:12 GMT
I have to agree with you Ramstine. Even with modern sports training and drugs, you would be hard pressed to find a powerlifter that can pull that kind of weight straight back. On foot, you can pull your elbow over your head for additional leverage. I might be able get one shot off every 10 min with rests, but only a really strong and big guy 6'4" 300 lbs, would be able to shoot such a bow under control and good aim.
Mongolians as horsearchers were concerned with balance and aim first and foremost. The armor they fought against was pretty light, so power exceeding 100 lbs would not be needed anyway. In a short range 100 lbs draws can piece most armor just fine.
Note: I have heard of Turks using powerful footbows during the First Crusade. I don't much detail survives, but these would have been 160+ lbs. They would have layed on their backs, placed the bows on the bottom of their feet and drew them by extending their legs. This may be what we are talking about.
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Post by rammstein on Jun 19, 2007 22:45:39 GMT
I think that if one trains their entire life with a bow something of that weight is doable with normal speed, albiet, it is probably not comfortable at all. A testament to aim and precision being a staple of eastern archery was the arrow heads. As I've pointed out numerous times, a tanged arrowhead is far weaker than a socketed one. A tanged arrow will lose much penetration as it splinters and deforms inside the wood where the socketed one will have a much better chance of penetration due to it's incredibly solid nature. Now, power is certainly important but due to the lighter armoured east, there never was a need to improve on these arrowheads - a tanged arrow will work just fine.
I'm not sure if that's possible - you would lose half of the power because the bow wouldn't be secure against your feet - this meas that while string is moving forward, the bow itself will have nothing supporting it making it fall off of your feet and if not knocking the arrow from flight, at least it will severly limit the power behind it. Just use an 80 lb footbow.
I tried this a few years ago with my longbow...didn't work well.
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Razor
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Post by Razor on Jun 20, 2007 5:31:28 GMT
I have never herd of any horse bow being 160lbs. that just to heavy a bow to shoot from a horse.Horse bows like a Mongolian or a Turkish bow where composite bows and did not need to have a heavy draw weight to get their fbs , the design and different layers of material glued together made the bow spring back faster lunching the arrow faster from the bow. They also draw their bows further back then other bows,look at the picture Ryan posted to see what I mean. Because of this a horse bow with lighter weight then a longbow can still have the same fbs.
I'm not saying a horse bow of 20lbs as the same fbs as a 100lbs longbow, but if they have the same lbs the horse bow will have a faster fbs then a longbow.
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Post by Razor on Jun 20, 2007 5:44:31 GMT
I think that if one trains their entire life with a bow something of that weight is doable with normal speed, albiet, it is probably not comfortable at all. A testament to aim and precision being a staple of eastern archery was the arrow heads. As I've pointed out numerous times, a tanged arrowhead is far weaker than a socketed one. A tanged arrow will lose much penetration as it splinters and deforms inside the wood where the socketed one will have a much better chance of penetration due to it's incredibly solid nature. Now, power is certainly important but due to the lighter armoured east, there never was a need to improve on these arrowheads - a tanged arrow will work just fine. I'm not sure if that's possible - you would lose half of the power because the bow wouldn't be secure against your feet - this meas that while string is moving forward, the bow itself will have nothing supporting it making it fall off of your feet and if not knocking the arrow from flight, at least it will severly limit the power behind it. Just use an 80 lb footbow. I tried this a few years ago with my longbow...didn't work well. I have seen those bows being shot at a ren faire, they are massive bows, their arrows are more like javelins and the way they held it with their feet the bow didn't drop when they shot the arrows.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2007 13:01:25 GMT
It takes a lot of practice but I have seen it done on a documentary on the Crusades. That is where I got my info from. I have heard that the Chinese used footbows too, but that source is less certain.
Clearly footbows can not be shot with accuracy. From what I can tell, they can't even see their target. But a few hundred shot together into an opposing army in tight formation can be very effective.
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Post by rammstein on Jun 20, 2007 13:22:10 GMT
...I've seen crusade documentories stating that crusader's swords were heavy, unbalanced, and clumsy...
I don't know if this is true...it sounds too farfetched to me.
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Post by jpfranco on Jun 20, 2007 13:34:17 GMT
...I've seen crusade documentories stating that crusader's swords were heavy, unbalanced, and clumsy... I don't know if this is true...it sounds too farfetched to me. Don't forget brittle and badly tempered . I am sure it did happen that a knight/man at arms died because of a bad sword but I don't think this was the norm.
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