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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2006 3:45:45 GMT
One of my favorite weapons is the English long bow. These things have draw weights up to 150 lbs and beyond that. They are capable piercing armor in short distances. I have a webpage dedicated to the longbow. It includes my personal experiance plus some interesting technical facts: mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/longbow/longbow.htm
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2006 5:14:35 GMT
I have been shooting a 55 pound traditional English Longbow for about 4 years.
Are people really able to pull a 150 pound traditional bow?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2006 5:57:23 GMT
For a long time I doubted people pulling 150 lb bows. Then I came across some pictures showing the medieval method of pulling the bow. The common method of shooting a bow these days is Victorian style. This is where you pull the bowstring back with the small, rear deltoid muscle to the chin or eye and aim down the arrow-shaft. The main focus is accuracy. To pull a heavy bow you have to learn to shoot medieval style. This style involves leaning forward in pulling the bowstring back with the larger Latisimus Dorsi muscle. As you straighten up your hand will naturally land by your ear-lobe. These are the same muscles you use to do a chin-up. So effectively you are doing a one handed chin-up into the bow. In the medieval style, the Latisimus Dorsi muscles involved start under your arm and go all the way down near your waist. This muscle group is much larger then the pectoralis (chest). This muscle group is only second in size to the leg muscle group. They also have a mechanical leverage advantage because of the way they are attached to the arm. There is a good deal of space between the joint and where the attach to the bone. I have not gotten a chance yet to pull a 150 lb bow but know I can pull 110 lbs straight back in the victorian style. I also do 3 chin-up with 2, 45 lb plates attached to me. That is 90 lbs, plus my 210 lb body weight, for a total of 300 lbs. So that is approx 150 lbs per arm. Based on that, I should be able to get one shot off every 5 minutes. I am thinking of ordering a 150 lb bow to find out for sure. If you scroll down to the very bottom of the following strength training webpage, you will see an excercise I do specificly to impove pulling heavy bows: mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/workout.htm
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Post by jpfranco on Dec 5, 2006 12:56:45 GMT
Just as an aditional piece of information on the longbow, the 150lbs draw weight was extremely rare. The "normal" weight was 90lbs. Do not forget that these people were smaller than we are today and that technology was also different. To make such a bow would have been a feat on engeneering by itself.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2006 19:02:08 GMT
Jpfranco, yes I would have to agree with you. Not only were they smaller, but they did not have the good nutrition we have today. The only reason I might be able to pull such a heavy bow is because of the specialized weigth training I do. I am only 5' 10" 210 lbs. I think in medieval times only at 6'4" 300 lb man could handle such a bow.
Another thing to keep in mind is that as a shoulder marching accross foreign lands, you will loose weight and strength. I was in Europe this past summer for a month. I traveled accross three contries, seening dozens of cities. The whole time I was carrying baggage and burning callories. When I came back, I had lost about 10 lbs of bodyweight and 25% of my strength in the gym. I gained it back within a month with hard training, but as you can see traveling takes its toll.
I think the avg bow came in at about 100 lbs at 28 inches.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 5, 2006 22:15:54 GMT
Tsafa was in a nice debate of at myarmoury about this. I was reading that with interest. It seems that, while improbable, it was possible with years and years of almost deforming training. your body would be almost built to the longbow and only then could you perform what most people today think of as superhuman feats. (imagine doing a three fingered, one handed, pull up. That is what many experts today do to train for this!)
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Post by rammstein on Dec 6, 2006 20:57:40 GMT
Tsafa, I was interested: COuld you elaborate on the medieval style of archery? I'm afraid its hard for me to understand what you mean just by writing. I'd love to see pictures of this!
Thanks, mate.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2006 0:34:23 GMT
I'm one step behind you Rammstein. I was not completly clear either until I saw some photos myself. I have prepared two small 350 k vids today showing the medieval style of loosing a bow. mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/longbow/bow10.MPG mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/longbow/bow11.MPG Things to notice: 1. I start in a low squat position. I need balance for this manuver that swings the upper body. 2. The bow starts out pointed down. 3. The elbow swings back over the head to the ear. 4. The bow tilts up so that it is in line with my elbow as the elbow back. The first vid better illustrates the squat stance. The second vid better illustrates the arm/waist action.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 7, 2006 20:58:07 GMT
ah nice, thanks tsafa. In fact, that could very well be one of the few videos on the subject! you might want to consider making more and posting them on your site to educate people about this. SInce a typical style of archery is insufficient, it would certainly be good to spread the word. It is also intesresting to note that you are ambixedxrous. probably makes it easier finding a bow . I am generally excluded from recretional shoots with friend if Ie don't bring my own bow, because I'm a lefty. But hey, I consider myself unique! what way to you shoot more efficiently?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2006 0:52:58 GMT
That was an excellant idea Rammstein, I have updated my wepage.
I always shoot ambixeterous because I can rest one side while shooting with the other. That is usualy not a problem with longbows because traditionaly they did not have arrow rests. Craftmen have to go out of their way to put one there. Longbows are usuualy what modern archers call sticks, lol.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 8, 2006 20:41:50 GMT
Thats a great idea. I can use a sword in either hand (not at the same time obviously), providing its well balanced enough that I don't lose control with my pathetically weak right hand. Still I never thought of using a bow ambixextrously. I think I'll try this sometime and hope I get more skill with my right side. this is very practical. Example: you use half the effort that I do to loose the same amount of arrows because you can rest!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2006 23:12:47 GMT
Absolutly! You will find it really works.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2006 2:07:02 GMT
Has anyone compared the performance of the English Longbow to that of a traditional Turkish Recurve?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2006 4:11:33 GMT
Generaly I hear that recurves are more efficent with reference to the "e" in the equation v = (eFx/m)^-2 v=velocity, F=draw weight, x=draw length from rest,m=mass of the arrow, e=efficency
The way to know for sure is to measure the exit velocity with a radar gun, accuratly measure all other weights and lengths and then solve for "e". I have not been able to accuratly measure exit velocity to attempt the experiment.
What this all means in simple term is that given equal draw weights, draw lengths and arrow mass, the arrow in the recurve should obtain a higher exit velocity because the bow is alleged to springs back faster. A traditional recurve is not based on wood, most of the tension comes from animal tendon... or so we think. The wood just provided a spine to hold it together. Lot of unkowns, because bow making was a closely guarded secret within asian societies. It stayed within the family and was passed down within the family. You will not see that higher efficiency in wooden recurves. Modern bows made out of composit materials are nearly 100% efficient reguardless if they have a longbow or recurve shape.
If traditional recurves were in fact more effivent vs. traditional longbows, I think that the longbow made up that difference by having a longer draw from its rest position. The force was applied over a greater distance. That is "x" in the equation above. To put it another way, the same caliber bullet will travel faster, hence further, in a gun with a longer barrel because the gasses are pushing the bullet a longer distance.
Another advantage of the longbow vs. the recurve is that with the longbow you can simply pull a heavier weight because you are standing on ground. Recurves where normaly shot from horses, which have a whole other set of advantages and disadvantages. A shorter bow makes sense from horseback. A longbow is imposible to use from horseback. The recurve was drawn to the chest so the rider could keep his arms down and maintain better balance on the horse. The longbow was draw to the ear so you could aim down the arrowshaft.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2006 4:29:39 GMT
I read somewhere about historical Turkish bows outshooting historical english longbows...I'll see if I can find the site where I read that and put it up...
Just so you know, Turkish bows are incredibly recurved.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2006 5:33:10 GMT
Yeah I have seen the Turkish bows but I am somewhat more familiar with Mongolian and Mughal bows. Post a picture if you have so everyone knows what we are talking about.
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Post by jpfranco on Dec 18, 2006 12:42:05 GMT
I think comparing both are like comparing apples with oranges. One was designed for field and siege used(longbow), the other, for horseback shooting thus, for shroter distances. They are also built in very different ways, the longbow is made from a single piece of wood, the composite eastern(turkish, horsebow, scythian ...) is made, in the traditionnal way with wood, bone and sinew. I think that they are two very different types of bows and each serve a particular purpose. I own a longbow but not a composite yet, I am waiting to find a properly made one(not metal covered with hide but a real composite) which are very expensive.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2006 0:56:37 GMT
Nice site tsafa, a lot of details including the physics behind it!! I've done some archery back in university but we used the modern bows. I would like to try the longbow or composite bow sometime...
jpfranco, I noticed that you're a fellow Torontonian, do you know where can you do archery and/or sword training in the city?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2006 1:17:12 GMT
Sargon, the SCA is a good lace to start, they are an international organizations. They have heavy weapons fighting, light weapons (rapier), archery, axe throwing, plus a whole bunch or other events. Use the following webpage to find a group near you: www.sca.org/geography/welcome.htmlSend them an email, they will be happy to direct you. You may also find other groups by searching the yahoo groups.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2006 1:47:44 GMT
Nice! I've already book marked the page and will contact them sometime after Christmas!
Thanks!
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