Greg
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Post by Greg on Mar 31, 2011 20:52:49 GMT
Hello everyone! Just wanted to hop in here and unveil my new stat for sword reviews. "Tip Weight" Sure everyone knows about length, weight, cop, pob, etc etc. All of this is incredibly useful information to have, but I found it difficult to gauge how the sword would feel in hand. One person says that a sword feels solid, and another says that it felt to blade heavy. This is why I started thinking of a way to measure the way a blade handles and quantify it. Well here it is!  The idea is rather simple. Suspend the sword by the area where the grip meets the guard. The weight of the blade will then be displaced by the weight of the pommel. So if we put a scale underneath the tip, we should be able to figure out how lively a blade will feel, without actually handling it. It is important to note that the blade needs to be kept as horizontal as possible when measuring. I used the same piece of string so that the angle of the blades were roughly the same. If the angle gets to steep, then the numbers become inaccurate. Below I've recorded the tip weight of every sword that I own. I was actually blown away at how accurately this system conveys the "liveliness" of a blade. Make/Model : Tip weight in oz H/T EMSHS 6.6 H/T Longsword 5.3 H/T GSOW 8.5 VA Longsword 8.1 VA Arming Sword 5.5 AT XII.1H 8.3 AT 1557 5.3 Hanwei Dadao 11.0 Munetoshi Beater 6.8 So, as we can see from these numbers, the VA 303 IS a bit more lively in the hand then the EMSHS and the H/T Longsword is even more lively then both of tho's! And the 1557 is right up there with the longsword, but since it weighs close to a pound less, you then start to get an idea of how these things handle. These numbers should be repeatable, and I'll ask anyone that has the means to repeat this process, to please do so and share the info. I'd like to know if these numbers are consistent, despite minor variations from blade to blade. As always, comments, critiques and questions are welcome. |
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Mar 31, 2011 20:58:38 GMT
I like it, but it only gives an impression of the static balance. This is really just a combination of POB and overall weight, it would seem. I'm more interested in the feel of the blade when it is swung.
For instance, my SBG Leaf would give a reading of next to nothing with this system, but it is no where near as lively as my Venetian Bastard sword.
Still, it's more informative than other measurements by combining several elements into one number. I like the idea of how much "weight" it takes to move the tip where I want it.
**Hell of a beautiful XIV, by the way.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 31, 2011 20:59:31 GMT
Interesting...
I've owned and cut with most of those swords myself... and your metric bares out my experience with them as well. Clever.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 31, 2011 21:03:09 GMT
This is true... but its HARD to give rock hard numbers to how a blade FEELS in hand... for that you delve into personal experience and how it relates to opinion and feel. Those are hard to quantify in numbers... but anyone doing a review can still express those impressions with their text. What Greg has here is a correlation between tip-weight and the overall feeling of light weight and speed one can expect from a sword... and while being a new metric its a bit hard to look at the numbers and go 'Oh yeah, I see...' I do noticed that based on my own experience with the swords Greg weighed... the lighter tipped swords were by far more lively in hand.
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Greg
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Post by Greg on Mar 31, 2011 21:09:50 GMT
Yeah, this is all in preparation for the 2 reviews that I'm putting together for the XIV and the 1315+. Luna, yeah, things like weight have to be taken into consideration as well. Momentum still exists so if you have a 4lb sword with 1oz of tip weight and a 1.5oz rapier with 2oz tip weight, obviously the rapier will still be more lively.  |
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Mar 31, 2011 21:18:12 GMT
Oh, yea, absolutely. I've held more than half of these swords and I agree with the ratings. I think is is a much more informative measurement than other cold stats, and I like it. But Greg did say critiques are welcome, and that is mine. This system is a more elegant way of describing static balance than we have been using, but static balance and liveliness are not the same thing. Among manufacturers with proper mass distributions in their blades (like those Greg has measured), this could be a handy comparison factor--- because then static balance is correlated with liveliness. But what is really being measured here is the mechanical advantage of the pommel. This is helpful ASSUMING a nice blade, but does not tell us much about the blade itself beyond its weight compared to the pommel. In my experience, the blade has far more to do with how nice a sword feels than the pommel does. One could imagine a heavy brute of a sword with no distal or profile taper to speak of, with an enormous pommel on the other end that would balance it out to have a "tip weight" of zero. But there is no way in hell that sword would be lively or "feel" good in hand. Like I said though, that's an extreme example (Greg just provided another nice one ). Among properly engineered swords, this could be a VERY helpful measurement. But static balance is not liveliness. |
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 31, 2011 21:21:54 GMT
Good points Luna... When it comes to truly understanding the liveliness of a sword in hand, there is no substitute for HAVING that sword in hand. In lue of that, reviewers will just have to do their best to describe (and hopefully demonstrate threw cutting vids) the liveliness of a blade... and readers will have to take those opinions and demonstrations to as much or little heart as they chose based on their opinion of the guy or gal doing the review.  |
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Lunaman
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Post by Lunaman on Mar 31, 2011 21:26:45 GMT
Got that right! There's something beautiful about that fact. |
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Greg
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Post by Greg on Mar 31, 2011 21:30:26 GMT
Yep, good points on all accounts. I suppose "liveliness" wasn't the best choice of word, but it was there, so I took it.
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Post by Federico on Mar 31, 2011 21:43:42 GMT
Interesting concept. Extra info is always good. I don't think it really measures moment of inertia though, which in my opinion is a more accurate measure of liveliness (vs. static balance as Luna says). I have the feeling that measuring the P.O.B. of a blade will give us similar info to your measurements regarding static balance, but expressed in inches rather than in weight. Also, handle length and gripping will probably change the "liveliness" of a blade, whether your measurement is higher or not.
With that being said, more info is always a good thing, so thank you for that.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Mar 31, 2011 22:19:17 GMT
It would be cool if manufacturers could just have Moment of Inertia's listed for all of their blades. Though I guess the majority of them probably wouldn't be pleased to have it public.
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Post by D'artagnan on Mar 31, 2011 23:12:31 GMT
I would love to see the cold steel guy give the moment of inertia on the greatsword cutting that BOSS of all BOSSES, the balloon.
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Post by chuckinohio on Mar 31, 2011 23:15:40 GMT
Your gamer geekness is showing. :lol:
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Mar 31, 2011 23:21:23 GMT
For any of you wondering; Tip Weight = Sword Weight * POB / Blade LengthAnd they said the free body diagrams I learned in physics class wouldn't be any use.  |
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Post by D'artagnan on Mar 31, 2011 23:23:35 GMT
I know, but for reals now, it's actually becoming commonly used with all of us in college. Todays word is BOSS
1. Boss (adj)
Incrediably Awesome; miraculous; great
Dude, did you see that chick? She's f&*$@#' Boss!
2. Boss (noun)
noun-a person who is a leader, someone who runs s&*# in his/her hood or city.
If you got more than $100 G's in the bank and stackin paper every day, more than likely you are a Boss.
3. BOSS (synonym)
See D'artagnan
courtesy of UrbanDictionary.com(not family friendly sight)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2011 2:19:26 GMT
This is interesting. I tend to agree with Lunaman though. I tested two swords I own, H/T Early Medieval sword and a Windlass Sword of Guy. First the sword specs. H/T 2.8 lbs, 31" blade, POB 4.5", Windlass 3.4 lbs, 33" blade, POB 3.5". The H/t tip weight is 5.8 oz, while the Windlass is 5.5 oz. The tip weights would suggest similar handling characteristics. However the H/T handles much better, feeling very lively compared to the Windlass which has the lighter tip weight. Windlass achieves the light tip weight through an overly heavy pommel. So the tip weight numbers on swords not correctly designed may not accurately represent how the sword will handle.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Apr 1, 2011 2:21:39 GMT
Does he know you post under his name online?
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Post by Student of Sword on Apr 1, 2011 2:30:25 GMT
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Post by D'artagnan on Apr 1, 2011 16:19:05 GMT
Vol- what do you mean? I posted that? I was messin round with Chuck, my broski. Not tryin to derail, just an honest laugh.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Apr 4, 2011 22:59:08 GMT
this is intersting. I like it. yes, there's more to the story of handling than this but I think we can use this. I wonder how it would weigh out with a XIIa.4 or XVIII.2
one thing to remember is that 5 ounces at a distance of 35" is going to be a lot slower than 5 ounces at a distance of 28" but I think with all the stats put together this new stat will help.
good job Greg.
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