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Post by Elheru Aran on Mar 8, 2011 17:33:38 GMT
First a stipulation: I am not looking for a debate over which swords are better. For the purpose of this discussion, all modern swords are considered equal given their different purposes and designs. Older swords are another story but I'll come to that. I will just go by "katana" to refer to Japanese swords overall, as I don't see the need to be more specific.
The following is all as I understand it, so PLEASE, please, feel free to correct my misunderstandings/misstatements on dates and what not! Some of it is personal opinion, and if you have facts to counter those opinions, then go ahead and tell me. I am trying to understand more about the world of production swords, as the other thread I'm posting might indicate as well...
I want to understand why katana/Japanese swords cover a large percentage of the reproduction sword market, and along those lines, why the costs for katana are different than that for European swords. I want to know, as well, why the quality of production tends to be different between the two types.
There's a LOT of katana out there in the market. Nihonto/authentic Japanese-made shinken are fairly rare, but Cheness, Hanwei, Musashi, etc, etc, are pretty common by comparison.
My understanding is that there have been more good katana on the market for longer than there have been good Euro swords. The great majority of Japanese shinken were destroyed at the end of WWII, which is why there aren't a whole lot of pre-WWII nihonto around (this is common knowledge though). After the occupation of Japan ended, production of shinken resumed. However, I understand that a good number of American soldiers took Japanese swords home with them, whether shinken, gunto, or Chinese crap (been around forever).
The next paragraph is strictly conjecture on my part...
With the numbers of shinken taken home and shown off by Americans, people were like "oh hey I want some of that". Their main source was China, given that Japanese smiths work extremely slowly and expensively. For a pretty good while most katana were crap, similar to the situation with Euros, but they were still nice-looking compared to the Euros. I mean, honestly, even a slightly sloppy cotton ito job and a wirebrushed hamon look better than a pot-metal sword knocked together in Pakistan. And if you're some novice (remember, this is pre-Internet), it looks pretty darn good to you.
So sometime in maybe the 80s, companies like Paul Chen/Hanwei start stepping up and making better katana, differentially hardened, silk ito, nice fittings. Still expensive, but not as expensive as the Japanese-made ones by far. I also blame the ninja/karate movies, and Japanese samurai movies coming out on video...
Anyway, I'm sorry for that ramble, but this is what I perceive as being the case: currently, the overall quality of production on katana is better over more makers than with Euro/Western swords. As such, it is my understanding that katana are generally more expensive than Euro swords.
Price-wise, there can be quite a divide between katana and Euros. The highest Albions are around $2000 if you get a full custom job with a scabbard. High-end katana can be $3000 *just* for the blade itself, leave alone polishing, saya, tsuka, tsuba and fittings. Japanese shinken are out of the picture, as they're comparable to a custom-made job by, say, Gus Trim and Christian Fletcher, not production swords like a Valiant Signature.
Granted, a 'high-end katana can be $3000 for blade alone' generally only if it's a custom job; I forgot about that detail. Hmm. A production DH katana blade will generally cost less, I'll gladly concede that-- Hanwei's MSRP on their Paper Crane is around $3200 for the whole package, and that's with a tamagahane folded steel blade. The Paper Crane is, as far as I know, probably *the* high point of production katana.
Let's say for some reason Hanwei decides to offer a line of katana blades in shirasaya. The Paper Crane blade could be as much as $2000; at least that wouldn't surprise me. If you wanted to go with a really top-of-the-line customizing job, that can cost in the thousands of dollars.
An Albion, on the other hand, is basically as fancy as you could ask for when it comes to an Euro sword, and they offer bare blades, even with heat-treatment, for $300 and under. Let's say Christian Fletcher fits out that $300 blade with an extra-fancy job for $2000, scabbard and all. That's still a high-quality European sword for $2300, less than many people pay for polishing, saya, and all the katana fittings.
Are all katana more expensive than Euros? No; see Musashi, Masahiro, etc.
Can Euros be expensive? Oh, absolutely. Can kats? Heck yes. Will a custom on a kat be more expensive than an Euro? Depends on what you want, but I believe that overall customizing a katana is on average more expensive than customizing an Euro sword.
Part of this is that Euro swords are a little more easily customized by their owners than katana. Leather and wire are pretty easily obtainable; samegawa, ito, tsuba, lacquer, etc... not so much. Euro swords are generally a satin polish; katana, a more mirror-like polish, plus etching to bring out the hamon if a DH blade. A satin polish can be kept up with some sandpaper and polish, but a katana needs a little more care than that if you want to maintain the nice appearance that it most likely came with.
Okay, I'll wind this up. Please, feel free to fill in the gaps in my knowledge or correct my mistakes, as I asked earlier. I look forward to discussing this and learning more about how this happened, why, and what may be changing...
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 8, 2011 17:52:44 GMT
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Post by Enkidu on Mar 8, 2011 18:03:48 GMT
Katanas are globally way more popular than euro repros. Hence why they have a wider range of available prices, quality, avaibility and manufacturers.
Katanas also generate a ritualistic/mystic/traditional kind-a-feeling in some of their fans ( which i dont understand ), which makes a difference also on the price range they can go to.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Mar 8, 2011 18:07:52 GMT
Not exactly what I was expecting when I came in here, but I can, at least, offer a conjectural answer as to why katana cover a large portion of all reproductions, it's for a very simple reason.
Most likely I'm just stating the obvious here, but plain and simply, katana are used more often in media than Euros. If you look at movies, anime, and manga, you'll find that the katana tends to outnumber them all, especially in the more high profile movies: Kill Bill, the Matrix 2, among others I can't name off the top of my head. Then there's the mythos of them being some kind of super sword; I have a friend who believes this very thing and won't hear a word against it.
Added to that is the fact that, for most Westerners, they grow up thinking of swords like the poorly done Excalibur replicas you can buy just about anywhere for 20$, and the katana creates a subconscious desire for the exotic; which is probably why the jian is so underrepresented. Even though the hilt is leagues different, it has a very similar blade to a Euro in that it is straight and has two edges, which is all the average person would really notice.
Again add to this that the use of the katana is usually pictured in movies, when demonstrated in its proper usage (and not a baseball bat, as in Kill Bill), it has an air of extreme refinement and elegance, with the techniques being fun to watch, whereas a Euro is presented as being nothing more than a sharp club and most Chinese swords are, well, they're elegant, but in a fantasy way since they're normally used in movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.
There's probably a few things I missed, but combine all that into one package and it creates an unfathomable demand, which is why the market is now flooded with cheap wallhangers, intro katana, mid-level, high-level, and very high-end katana, all at a relatively reasonable price, whereas a "quality" Euro on the cheap used to be something along the lines of pre-Sonny Valiant Armory or Hanwei's Iberia line and there was no such beast as a quality Chinese sword. And that's just what I remember seeing online from 9-10 years ago, so we have come far to have the Tinker Line and VA's practical line.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Mar 8, 2011 18:34:59 GMT
That's a good theory. Why do you think that has happened (media saturation)? Just the generic "it's a cool non-Western weapon"? And why exactly did the swords-are-clubs meme pop up?
Cossack, cute, but this is kind of a serious thread...
Part of what mystifies me about katana, is that people are so willing to pay thousands of dollars to get one all fancied up, when honestly they don't look *that* different from a nice production katana. Whereas with an Euro, you can do them up yourself pretty easily. A custom Euro, I'll grant, is probably comparable to a custom katana, but when you get into the high end, katana can easily be twice or three times the price of a fully customized hand-made Euro (IIRC, the highest price I've ever seen for a custom euro was ~$4000), and a Japanese shinken can be that much without customization.
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Post by Bogus on Mar 8, 2011 20:23:43 GMT
I think you and Vince are on the right track. Katanas have massive media exposure, partly because of the exotic-is-cool thing and partly because Japanese entertainment (anime, Kurasawa films, etc.) is itself very popular for a variety of reasons and naturally tends to focus on the local goodies. Not sure why exactly, but I'm sure part of it is Eastern entertainment tends to be heavily stylized and Western entertainment is trending toward realism, and more recently, navel-gazing didacticism. Over-the-hill John McClane and Jason Bourne are alright heroes, but they don't have the mystique or cool factor of a badass warrior from 13 generations of tradition that nobody understands. Obviously this wasn't always the case, and indeed Western duelling swords like the rapier (my personal favorite) and the swashbuckling films featuring them used to be king. Of course, it should be pointed out that the cultural and economic situation was sufficiently different that the idea of a reproduction rapier didn't really exist yet.
BTW I may be mistaken on this but I believe a handmade katana from one of the old-school hardcore traditionalist Japanese swordmakers can run close to six figures. I don't think the Western world has any equivalent to this.
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Post by frankthebunny on Mar 8, 2011 20:44:41 GMT
this is a very difficult question to answer without going into pages of details. I agree with what Bogus mentioned above, I have seen nihonto auctioned for close to 100,000
I believe bare blades from Howard Clark have been sold for around 3-9K then possibly thousands more to mount them.
just take a close look at the furniture involved in a comparative sense for your basic samurai sword and your basic longsword.
Katana:
blade, tsuka core, samegawa, mekugi, menuki, ito, fuchi, kashira, seppa, habaki, tsuba, saya core, koiguchi, kurigata, kojiri, sageo, (many more items on more elaborate models)
Long sword:
blade, pommel, handle core, leather/wire, cross guard, scabbard, belt (again more items on different models)
this is in no way a full comparison between swords, cultures or work involved, just a quick note on the very basic parts used.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 8, 2011 20:57:51 GMT
I see it as two parts...
1. For the casual sword collector, Katana are more popular because they more 'hyped' up in books, film, TV comics and Anime, video games and the like. They are considered 'cooler' so a lot of the younger people who just buy swords cuz they want something cool... they want a Katana.
2. Japaneses Sword Tradition is unbroken... and for JSA students and practitioners there are more options to study and learn JSA then for Euro Sword styles or other even less known sword styles. People are only recently really putting effort into re-gaining the knowledge lost on those sword arts.
So when you consider those two, very different markets of sword collector, you see that the katana has an edge in each market. At that point... it becomes pure supply and demand. There is more interest in the Katana... so more demand. So supply is greater.
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Post by chrisperoni on Mar 8, 2011 21:03:54 GMT
Vincent put it quite well.
My 2 bits on what he said (can you hear the echo, echo, echo, echo )
The North American (N.A.) culture has been increasingly infatuated with 'Eastern' culture since kung fu began being popularized in the 60's -70's and the tide is still swelling for this. Conversely, N.A. has been less interested in European cultures. I'm generalizing here for sure- but it's all related. I would guess that the same is happening in Europe with Europeans not being very interested in N.A. culture.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 8, 2011 22:21:39 GMT
Well, then, I shall take my fripperies away, and trouble ye no more.
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Post by Anders on Mar 9, 2011 0:03:25 GMT
Okay, so here's my take on this: To put it simply, the katana is the ”in vogue” sword of our time. Basically, it happens to be in fashion.
It's a mistake, I think, to define the katana as a ”Japanese sword”. They were originally from Japan, yes, but today there are several smiths in America making very respectable katana, and a very large percentage of the people who collect and train with these weapons are westerners, plus they frequently show up in western popular culture. In other words, while the katana is a Japanese sword, it's also a sword that has been assimilated into western culture.
This isn't really an unusual thing: it has happened all the time throughout history. The rapier was originally a Spanish sword but soon spread to the rest of Europe, only to later be replaced by a the Dutch smallsword as times changed. A very good example of this is the so-called mameluke saber – originally oriental-style scimitars brought home by Napoleon and his army from their conquest of Egypt, they became so fashionable that they're still used ceremonially in western militaries. Non of this had much to do with them being superior swords; they were just stylish and exotic, so the French thought they were cool. Same way people today think katana are cool.
So why the katana? Hard to tell – it might just be a matter of good timing, that it was the sword that caught our eye just as we were ready to accept it. It's also a very timeless sword. Perhaps it's because we're simply so used to seeing them in a modern context via movies and games and so on, but unlike most other swords the katana doesn't come across as an anachronism.
Of course, you can also blame the hype but if you think about it, you can hype any sword. The whole ancient perfected artform, blades folded a million times, stronger and sharper then any other sword thing can just as well be applied to, say, pattern welded euros. I'm personally ill convinced that katana are popular because we hype them, rather then vice versa.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2011 1:39:39 GMT
I blame the public school system. I just finished High School in the United States, and the overwhelming theme that they teach you in nearly every social studies/geography/government class is that the USA is the worst thing that ever happened, with the rest of Europe right behind it. They emphasize every culture but our own. It's kind of sad.
Oh, and we saw a documentary in history class about ninjas. I had to laugh at that one, and stopped taking the teacher seriously right afterward.
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Post by Student of Sword on Mar 9, 2011 1:53:18 GMT
Dudes,
The grass is not greener on the other side. You guy (the European sword collectors) should consider yourself very lucky. It cost a whole lot less to be a European sword collector than a katana collector. I would dance with joy if the katana market is similar to the European market. That mean I can buy so much more swords.
I am digging European swords now. I bought 3 Atrim so far and it cost me less than 1 custom made katana when all is said and done. A good quality sword from a respected craftsman for less than $500.00. You got to be kidding me.
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Post by Pogo4321 on Mar 9, 2011 3:24:02 GMT
Kurosawa, Sonny Chiba, Sho Kosugi, Daredevil by Frank Miller, Shogun, Highlander, Matrix, Kill Bill, Heroes, Last Samurai. And a stream of anime and manga.
As for cost I think mostly covered, but there is just more labor put into katana combined with a greater rejection rate--differential hardening and folding can be hard on steel.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Mar 9, 2011 5:12:18 GMT
Really? That's very different from when I was in school, almost to the extremes. When I was in school, every history class either focused on U.S. history or Texas history to the point that, in 8th grade, I literally passed U.S. History asleep (I slept through most of my classes only waking up to take tests; never did my homework, either).
@aran: As to why the "Western-swords-are-sharpened-clubs" meme, it's rather simple, really. Until very recently, the techniques of WMA were very hard to find and usually only in a few obscure schools. So the movie producers had no clue of how these swords were used and that they can be just as, if not more so, elegant than the katana (just my opinion, guys; don't shoot me). All they really knew was that they wore heavy plate armor, carried a shield, and a sword, and the only conceivable way they could see a fight like that going is to bash their swords together (or against their shields) until one of them overpowered the other with brute force. Sounds a lot like a club, doesn't it?
And now, the reason I think that people are so willing to spend upwards of 5-6 figures for a fully customized shinken when, aesthetically (and perhaps performance wise, except for the most highly trained), they don't look that different, well, it has to do with the mystique that makes people want a katana in the first place. If a relatively cheap 500$ factory made (in the sense that it's a production model) is some kind of super sword, then what kind of godslayer must a full nihonto produced by a Japanese smith in the most traditional of methods be?
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Post by ecovolo on Mar 9, 2011 5:35:16 GMT
Two cents on this topic: To consider a simple point: Media. From what I've witnessed, there's been an *explosion* in the popularity of manga and anime from about 1986 to now. When I was a child, I didn't know what a katana was largely because I wasn't exposed to it. The popular Japanese cartoons were things about giant robots, the future (ie. Starblazers), etc.-- anything but swords and swordplay. Someone mentioned Japanese pop culture, and my first thought at that time in my life was Hello Kitty  . After high school, not only was I aware of what a katana was thanks to exposure to anime, but I was fascinated by the almost mythical status they seemed to have. Since that time, I've only seen such stories expand in the popular consciousness. I showed a friend of mine my production katana collection recently, and one of his first questions was, "How old are they?" I realized that this was partly due to his exposure to fiction-- the usual story being that superior Japanese swords were made by smiths/hermits living in caves over five hundred years ago, distributing them to specific 'worthy swordsmen', and that these swords were handed down generation to generation, etc. You get the idea. While pop culture regarding western-styled swords exists --Three Musketeers movies, fantasy barbarian films (ie. Conan The Barbarian) and Lord Of The Rings movies, as some examples-- for some reason this seems more relegated to D&D nerds, the SCA, and Ren Fair participants. Why? I'm not sure, but I have theories on this one that can wait for another post  . --Edward |
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Greg
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Post by Greg on Mar 9, 2011 6:07:40 GMT
One word:
Highlander
Personally, I would have been more impressed if Duncan pulled a claymore outta that trenchcoat and broke into some western martial arts. But again, WMA wasn't really known about until recently. But if you think about it, the two most common types of swords on the Highlander movie, were katanas and later style cut-n-thrusts (which no wonder they lost, try decapitating someone with a rapier...) See someone pull out a type XII and a buckler and ol Duncan would have been up semprini creek.
But this only explains why they are sought after. I think the original question more focused on the WHY media has used the katana as the ultimate weapon. If I were going for my Masters in History, this would be my thesis paper.
But I'll agree with the point that it has to do with the "Extension of the soul" philosophy. It would seem that the western blade was used more as a tool, just like a gun is viewed today. It's functional, good at what it does, and needs to be kept in good repair while using it. If it breaks, ah well, hope you survive that battle then get a new one.
(Please don't take what I'm about to say as an insult.) But I think it's funny that there are people who subscribe to the "extension of the soul" ideal, but then they have 10+ production blades as well as a few higher dollar customs in their collection. Granted, they could call one of em their soul, but if each is an extension of their soul, then they either have a lot of soul or it's just spread really thin.
Far be it from me to tell another person how to spend their money.
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Post by Student of Sword on Mar 9, 2011 6:17:33 GMT
Greg,
When I first looking for iaido class. There was a school much closer to my house than the one I am currently training with. But when I saw on their website, they were comparing a katana to a holly relic; I decide I want nothing to do with them. Inanimate objects have no soul.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2011 7:47:59 GMT
First, wouldn't a 500 year old katana be made from relitivley poor steel? Second I would love to see someone spend 10k for a custom katana and ruin it by doing something stupid like trying to cut a car or brick wall.
As to why everyone loves them, people are for the most part morons. Media told the masses "Katana are cool, you love them and they are the bestest thing ever" and the masses mindlessly droned it back.And so nowadays the market is satuated. My first "real" sword was a $130 masahiro. I like katana, but I hold no illlusions about them being somehow magical though. I can see something in the extension of ones soul thing, as in a sword just clicking with a person better than any other, though having just written that it occurs to me that extension of ones body would be far more acurate.
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Greg
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Post by Greg on Mar 9, 2011 8:02:36 GMT
Student... you never cease to earn my respect. Actually Raze, the people who created these swords to be dependable in a life or death situation pretty much had a very good system of making swords. Granted, they didn't know what they were doing scientifically, they just new that when you do certain steps, one after another, that the result is a good piece of metal. Today we have better methods of producing homogeneous steel. However, some may argue that we have lost the art of making certain kinds of steel and different methods of heat treatment. This is true for eastern and western swords equally. Remember, people didn't have Farmville and American Idol 500 years ago, so they put their energies elsewhere... like into swords. |
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