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Post by craigd on Mar 11, 2011 18:13:01 GMT
There is an interesting debate on SFI about this atm in the JSA forum, with the 'sword is just a tool' argument. BTW, in the UK machined katanas are illegal, while hand-forged katanas aren't. Machined long-swords however are perfectly legal. Silly eh. That aside, a photo is just a photo, but if it is of my late father it means so much more to me than it would to you. Price is down to 2 things: 1) How much to produce it. 2) How much personal value people associate with it. The first is obvious and in the case of Nihonto with the strict controls and amount of labour involved the base cost is very high. I also think Student is right in saying the base cost is higher for Katanas due to the materials used, and the fact Habaki, Saya, Ito etc all has to be carefully made in order for it to be a safe weapon/not fall to pieces within a month. The second less so, but why do people pay more for an Italian suit than they would an imported chinese suit? Partly the care and attention that goes into it, partly the higher labour costs, but also in large party it carries a premium because of perception and what it represents. For many people, Katanas have captured the imagination, more often than not as a result of disinformation and media hype but it is there. Someone already mentioned Highlander. I know now that a blade folded 200 times would be much WORSE than a blade folded 12-15 times. But it captured my imagination as a teenager in a way even Excalibur couldn't. And you can get Katanas but you can't get magical swords. (ignoring the fact the properties some people believe Katana to possess would make them magical  ) The 47 ronin, Musashi, Masamune. They have all made an appearance in some form in western society but I couldn't tell you any famous western medieval swordsmiths or famous swordsmen. (Keanu Reeves is involved in the making of a 47 ronin film right now). The sword was seen as a huge part of that culture, while if I think of a European Knight the sword was just something they used to kill people, I couldn't even tell you which sword was from where but Katanas are very distinctive. I don't know if that is right or wrong, but that is how it has been portrayed through the years. The code of the samurai, the japanese tea culture. All of it is part of what creates an image and for me my Hanwei Tori is just a sword/tool, but an Antique Nihonto? Wow, that would be a life-long dream. The history it has seen, the culture it embodies. Would I personally pay 10k for a nihonto? If I had the money, hell yes. But I wouldn't pay 10k for a long sword unless it really was Excalibur. |
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Mar 12, 2011 2:48:23 GMT
I just got my first Euro today (H/T GSoW) and I have something else to chime in.
When I hold even the lowest end functional production katana it feels like a deadly weapon. I know H/Ts are highly effective weapons, but the first impressions I got from holding one was 'flimsy'. Katanas are quite rigid and stiff. The Euros I have handled are quite floppy in comparison. If I knew nothing about swords I would have probably mistaken it for a toy mock up sword. Don't get me wrong, I can fully appreciate their value of the swords as weapons, but I can't think of any other piece of metal tool I own that is that floppy.
I'm not meaning to bash Euros here, but actually holding one to an untrained practitioner is an experience that I think most would find underwhelming. Of course the number of people that have actually held authentic swords is limited, but it can't help.
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Post by D'artagnan on Mar 12, 2011 4:16:11 GMT
Bolas aren't rigid either, nor is the cord on a slingshot...just making a point that flimsiness doesn't effect how deadly of a weapon it is.
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SeanF
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Post by SeanF on Mar 12, 2011 4:48:10 GMT
I didn't mean to imply that in the least. I just meant that holding one isn't as likely to make as memorable an impression.
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Post by frankthebunny on Mar 12, 2011 5:05:25 GMT
being new to Euro swords myself, I admit that I felt the same way at first. I was shocked that the Viking blade was so flexible and couldn't visualize large and tough warriors swinging around a floppy piece of steel like that. after handling a couple of flexible blades since then, I now see them in a much different light. deadly? hell yes! floppy and wimpy? not in the least!
I have heard that a tightly strung thin cable or even rope could cut a man in half in a snap with enough tension applied.
before I held my first real katana I was kind of expecting a 4 pound bar of heavy metal not a well balanced and relatively light precision tool.
I was also shocked the first time I saw a 90 pound senior citizen toss a 6', 175 pound 25 year old 4 feet across a dojo with little more than a hip twist.
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Post by Silvermoon on Mar 12, 2011 5:21:14 GMT
I would be inclined to disagree with this statement, as it seems to me that it all depends on personal preference as to what will leave a more memorable and lasting impression. For example, my first real usable sword was one of the SBG custom katanas, and while it is a fantastic sword and years later I still very much enjoy it, it never quite "clicked" with me so to speak. However when I received my three H/T's thanks to the recent sale, as soon as I dry handled them I fell in love. European swords just feel right in my hand, even the GSoW which has a decent amount of flex I enjoy handling infinitely more than a katana. But that's just my two cents, and I'll admit I'm probably a bit biased since I've always had a deep fascination with european blades and their use.
As for the OP, I won't say much on the subject being as most everything has already been covered. I agree with the theory that a large part of the difference in price is part the so called "mysticism" of the katana. Though I wouldn't be surprised if some of it was because of the more complex fittings and design.
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Post by craigd on Mar 12, 2011 12:39:56 GMT
Actually just to add to Silver's comment...
Much to my eternal chagrin, my 7 year old was pretty underwhelmed with my Tori Elite... he is however in awe of my friends SLO longsword/excalibur he bought while we were visiting Eilean Donan (castle in Highlander). The blade almost looks like hammerited zinc but he loves it.
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Post by Bogus on Mar 13, 2011 3:49:40 GMT
Trouble with this argument is that at least in my experience, most people--even a lot of amateur sword buffs--don't really know/care what goes into making swords. How many katana fans have actually taken one apart? SBG/MyArrmory/SCA guys are pretty statistically insignificant in the greater cultural landscape after all. I think Greg is onto something, a scholarly paper covering the rise of Japanophilia and the katana > * cultural trope would be a totally awesome research project for some aspiring history/humanities type person.
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Post by Vue on Mar 13, 2011 5:15:34 GMT
Question for the Euro guy's:
I've always wondered why the Euro crowd always compare Euro's swords to only Japanese swords? Wouldn't it make more sense to compare Euro swords with Asian swords? .... I mean, it wouldn't be fair if I was to compare all Asian swords with a just German longsword now no?
Sorry Elheru, I don't mean to derail your thread just curious as to why this comparison comes up every often
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Mar 13, 2011 8:57:58 GMT
I'm not really a Euro guy; I'm mostly a Chinese guy, but I can still answer this. The reason the Euro is compared to the Katana most often than anything else is, quite simply, they're the most visible swords around. How many non-Chinese, non-Korean, non-Thai, non-Viet, etc. movies use a Chinese, Korean, Thai, or Viet sword? The only answer I can come up with is The Last Airbender, that horrifying ruination of a great show. On the contrary, how many non-Japanese movies use the katana? How many non-Euro/American movies use a Euro? I can't name specifics, but there's several movies, anime or not, that use a Euro styled fantasy sword.
And I don't think you have anything to worry about with derailing, since the reason kinda plays into why so many people love the katana.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2011 18:59:26 GMT
i agree that there are (too) many katana's on the internet. but then, how many fantasy(european styled) swords are there on the market? the numbers of fantasy swords quite match the numbers of katana's. the reason why katana's overwhelm the real sword collectors is because there are more functional katana's on the market then functional fantasy swords(which we don't even notice anymore because the aren't functional).
the reason (i think) that there are more functional katana's, is because the collectors of katana's more often want a ''real'' sword, while the collectors of fantasy swords are more often the nerdy type (no offence, i'm a geek too) and don't really care if their sword is functional or not.
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