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Post by Enkidu on Jan 7, 2011 18:16:13 GMT
Interesting new stuff. The baselard and the belt are nice. A sharp version of that messer would be nice. Thanks for the info ! P.S it says in the description '' designed to cut ''  |
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Post by Reflingar on Jan 7, 2011 20:57:20 GMT
Indeed indeed! Sharp messer!
Looking forward getting more information about these new pieces! Cawood, Crecy (Type XV ?!?!), Baselard, Rondel: Hehehe...the possibility that this is going to hurt the wallet of many is now very real...edited to add: ya, it will probably hurt mine anyway... :lol:
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Post by johnapsega on Jan 7, 2011 22:13:13 GMT
do we know when any of these will be hitting stores like KoA
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Jan 7, 2011 22:44:31 GMT
looks like I'm gonna have to do some more research on messers. I thought the grip on this guy should have been shorter but I really don't know. maybe because it is a long messer? I know messer came in many variety maybe this is one. would be nice to see a sharp of this and a messer with clipped point and sharp (or not sharp for the trainer) false edge.
ok a question for any who knows the nagle (nail) on the side of the cross, isn't that thing supposed to slant toward the point? I think all the ones I've seen have slanted that way except this one. I thought the fact the nail slanted towards the point aided it in its purpose. maybe I have gone nuts and am barking up the wrong tree in my search for worms but I really thought. . .
anyway, I do like the messer.
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Post by chuckinohio on Jan 8, 2011 12:16:37 GMT
Seems like they orient either way.
Whether this is due to user preference or makers preference I have no idea.
There are some angled towards the pommel, some towards the point of the blade, and some that seem to stick straight out from the cross. There is alot of variation in how much curvature the nagel has also, from a gentle angle to quarter round looking. I would have to throw a bet on makers preference if pressed.
Most Messers were made by knife makers instead of sword makers, so maybe there was a lack of concensus on what was proper, or a lack of familiarity with actual messer techniques amongst the makers.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jan 8, 2011 13:32:40 GMT
Chuck pretty much nailed it. Being that the langes messer was literally a long knife and made by peasants for peasants, rather than an actual sword, there would have been a great deal of variation between the smiths who made them, be it user preference, smith preference, or something that is part of their culture or even part of their familial heritage. I've seen ones that have a forward nagle, a rear nagle, a side ring (like that on the Cold Steel Grosse Messer), a few with no nagle at all, some with blades like falchions, some that are curved with clip points, some that are just curved, some that are straight with clipped points, plenty that look like saxes, I've even seen one with an s-guard. It really just varies a lot.
Tom, the nagle's main purpose, as far as I know (which, admittedly, isn't much), isn't so much as for arresting the opponent's blade as keeping it away from the hand; if it diverts it away (which a rear nagle would do), it still serves it's purpose. However, given what little I've seen of messer fighting (something I'm very interested, so I'm always looking for new sources), a forward nagle would be infinitely more useful as the majority of techniques revolve around parrying an opponent's blade and arresting it with the guard, much like in longsword fighting, if I'm not mistaken, and then going in for the kill. So, while either one would work, for the sake of argument, you're correct based on everything I've seen; a forward curving nagle would be better. Perhaps the rear one is indicative of a regional variants in technique?
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Post by chuckinohio on Jan 8, 2011 14:00:04 GMT
Correct.
The forward curved or straight nagel would be better for binding an oponents weapon, while the rear curved one would be solely for knuckle protection.
It wasn't so much that mesers were made for peasants by peasants, but that they were made primarily by knife makers that gives me reason to think that there was no hard and fast rule as to just what exactly the nagel was there for.
If I remember correctly, it was a dispute between sword makers and knife makers in Poland??? over who should be allowed to make single edged blades that gave rise to the split between Falchions and Messers. A Falchion will have a sword grip and be made by a sword maker, while a Messer will have grip panels, pins for securement, and exposed tang surfaces like most knife construction, and be made by a knife maker.
Being as most knife makers were probably not acquainted with engaging an oponent with a longer blade, perhaps they saw the nagel as primarily a way of adding a personal flair to their work.
That is not to say that at some point, there was a standardization in the way that Messers were expected to be produced, and the nagel was recognized as being nore useful if it was angled forward to use in a binding play.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Jan 8, 2011 18:30:08 GMT
thanks guys I pretty much figured that was the case I just hadn't done the research.
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Post by Enkidu on Jan 11, 2011 17:15:59 GMT
KOA lists the Rhinelander at 149$ on the pre-order section.
159$ for the Crecy, 164$ for the messer and 159$ for the Cawood.
60$ for the belt.
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Post by chrisperoni on Jan 11, 2011 17:42:38 GMT
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Jan 11, 2011 18:19:50 GMT
I notice they are sticking with 5160 like they used for the Tinker line. I wonder if that means they are using the same heat treat specs.
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Post by chrisperoni on Jan 11, 2011 19:16:22 GMT
I would imagine so unless they have another more cost effective ht setup working. I figure they may be trying to narrow down their selection of steels and in doing so be able to control costs = less choices and bigger orders for certain steels might cost less overall (?). Same thinking for ht, maybe?
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Post by bloodwraith on Jan 11, 2011 19:27:28 GMT
Maybe it is just me but seriously, I think this would work better and appeal to a wider audience with twin rings rather than the single ring. A little disappointing but such is life.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on Jan 11, 2011 21:13:34 GMT
those rings add a lot of weight though, I think this is an interesting choice and I rather like it. it does kinda suck that it forces you to use the same edge as the long edge all the time but no biggie.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Jan 12, 2011 1:29:16 GMT
I swear man... you and I could not be more different... but somehow when it comes to swords we seem to almost always have the same taste. The above is exactly what I thought when I saw it... if it had twin hilt rings I most likely would pick one up.
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Post by Neil G. on Jan 12, 2011 14:21:58 GMT
I'm pleasantly surprised by these new offerings. I really like the look of the longsword and of the messer, although I'd much prefer a sharp over a "practical". The one that really caught my attention though is the baselard. I might just have to spend part of my income tax return on one of these.
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Aaron
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Post by Aaron on Jan 12, 2011 22:54:26 GMT
Love the look of the new longsword blade, but not too tickled by the hilt.
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Post by chuckinohio on Jan 13, 2011 15:01:14 GMT
Yeah, it looks unbalanced with the single side ring, but then again that is just me. I'm a fan of symmetry.
I guess that the handling will tell the tale as to whether it is a hit or a miss. The pommel looks to be peened, so no easy strip down for guard swapping or modification.
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