TomK
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,377
|
Post by TomK on Jan 8, 2011 3:48:00 GMT
I really don't mind if a sword has a sloppy look at least to some degree. heck the H/T bastards I have seen had a fair amount of slop to them.
and you are right I shouldn't condem the whole line because I haven't handled them but there are things that scare me off swords like the Mercenary and even the Henry V even from this new and improved line.
POB is one of them and the ricassos are another. it isn't at all that I don't like the look of ricassos but rather that we have a sword with a POB of 2" on a 27.25" blade and the whole thing weighs in at just under 3 pounds. I just hate it that every single budget Euro sword has to be so dang heavy and then, as if it could make up for it, they get super heavy weight pommels and even huge thick ricassos slapped on them to bring the pob rediculously close to the guard. for some reason sword makers seem to think that a sword should balance as close to the hilt as possible no matter what, and especially so with thrusting or cut and thrust swords. having a pob so close to the hand actually make a sword a poor thruster as there is no way to feel where your point is and the slightest movement will cause the point to over-steer and go off track. rapiers and medieval sword designed for thrusting typically had balance points from 4 to 6 inches out and sometimes even farther. sometimes a lot farther. there are a lot of medieval swords out there that would not feel good to most modern collectors and sword enthusiasts but worked well for what they were designed to do.
basically what I'm saying is that while I haven't held any of this line I am seeing clues that make me think they are pretty off the mark of what I would like in a sword and I wish more budget swords would be made with the sort of understanding that the Tinker line is made with. I admit it I am very picky about the handling of swords, but I feel that there is no real reason why budget swords cannot be made to a better standard. I'm not saying these swords are bad, really, just that I think they could be better and still in the same price range. I understand that there are limits to what can be done on a budget and I certainly understand that most people cannot go into an expensive sword and must choose from the budget lines. until very recently I was one of those people and still am to a greater degree than probably most people know. but that is a discoussion for another time.
I think that swords made like most swords on the production market are made to satisfy what the companies think people want and not to represent what swords actually were when they were a viable weapon of war. I think it is a shame that it is so hard to find a European sword that handles and feels anything like a real medieval sword. and when it comes to this I'm not just talking about budget swords. there are a lot of swords out there that people will tell you are historically accurate in their handling but they either straight up are not or are only representative of a very small portion as indicated by the surviving artifacts. please don't ask me to point fingers or name names, I'm not ready to open that can of worms, but let us just say that I have recently been getting glimpses into some very closely held information that came from a guy name Ewart Oakeshott and is not in any of his books so far as I know.
|
|
|
Post by johnapsega on Jan 8, 2011 5:01:24 GMT
I would love to hear this info at another time if possible maybe a pm is in order but I completely agree with you and to be honest what handles great to me is most likely just my inexperience in the field speaking. However I think that all in all they are very good for what you get. for the low price I think from my experience they are good blades. Also if someone wants to learn how to do things like sharpen what beter to do it on then something that isnt worth anything to bein with lol.
|
|
TomK
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,377
|
Post by TomK on Jan 8, 2011 5:17:51 GMT
I hear you, but for what they are I wish they could come in under the $100 mark, then they'd be worth a look. honestly some of the stuff that is still hanging around from years ago like the old VA stuff is just rubbish and sword-like at all. VA and then Hanwei Tinker really changed the face of the production Eruopean sword market I just hope it continues. those swords are really driving the market and other companies are having to learn from them to stay in business. I'm really happy Hanwei is improving their lines, but I'm not yet happy with where they are and I want them to continue the process. in another year or two who knows how things will be. the more we all learn the better it gets for all of us.
as for the information, let me stress that I am talking glimpses and it isn't the information itself that is important so much as what I am learning from it and what I am learning by associating it with information I already have and skills I already have. by itself it would seem pretty meagar but combined with certain other things it has begun to really open my eyes. I hope to one day have learned enough that I am able to share it properly and when/if I get there I will do so. but if I shared too much right now I would just get things wrong and present what I do get right in the wrong way. so be patient, I'll share it as I understand it better. the fact that there is so much more information floating around out there than is published and that I may have found a source into a really good pocket full of it is very exciting.
|
|
ChrisA
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,240
|
Post by ChrisA on Jan 8, 2011 17:27:32 GMT
I agree that anyone interested in swords as a hobby should learn how to sharpen them (personally I'm not so good at it). But that does not mean I will recommend a sword that comes unsharpened. If a sword is advertised as sharp it should be able to cut. Everyone who drives a car should learn how to change a tire. That does not mean cars should come with 4 flat tires! So, my thoughts are to recommend a sword that comes sharp for a first sword and save the learning for a second, cheaper sword or even wait until this sharp sword becomes dull.
Sword preference is very, very subjective. Research is very important and these forums has a wealth of information. I have to admit that I do not regret any of my sword purchases to date...ok, maybe one...because I learned everything I could about what properties are desirable in a sword. Then I read what swords best combine these properties. I knew the Hawei's I bought would be dull (which was on of the reasons I wanted them), but thanks to Tom I also knew they were well made and balanced.
Of course not all reviews are necessarily accurate ("This sword weighs 16 pounds, has a POB of 18" and virtually no distal taper....But I think it handles GREAT!!") but I learn even from these. While the reviewer likes his sword heavy with lots of blade presence, I do not so I will stay away.
Read, learn, ask, then decide for yourself.
|
|
TomK
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,377
|
Post by TomK on Jan 8, 2011 18:15:35 GMT
I hear you Chris, and I agree swords SHOULD come with a cutting capable edge. HOWEVER, they just do not in many, many cases. My point is that one should prefer a properly made sword over a good sharp edge. it is a better idea to get a good sword and sharpen it than get a poor sword with a sharp edge and have nothing you can do with it.
in other words if cars only came with flat tires I would be a tire changing master
|
|
|
Post by Major, Cory J on Jan 8, 2011 18:39:53 GMT
No offense, guys, but I think a slight thread hijack is in progress. The OP was simply asking for some info on basic swords and where to get them from at a certain price range. Somehow we have advanced to a debate on the quality of out of the box sharpness and sharpening theories. Maybe another thread for this purpose?
|
|
|
Post by RicWilly on Jan 8, 2011 18:43:59 GMT
Point taken, Corey, but I'd have to disagree as issues such as sharpness are important when considering a sword. Albiet the op said cutting wasn't a big concern, still more info the better I would think.
Tom, I'd say if the only good cars came with flat tires, I'd be a tire changer.
I agree swords should come with a decent cutting edge if they're advertised as "sharp". Then again sharp is open to interpetation. I know of one red trouser wearing individual who says swords don't need to be that sharp. Me, I need em sharp as I can get em.
That issue kept me from buying any of the H/T line swords for a long time. At the original price it went against my grain to buy their swords because they weren't sharp enough and at that price I thought they should have been. When the price came down and I was secure in my sharpening ability, I got a couple and I think they are the best deal going if one is able to do a bit of work on the edge.
The older Cas Iberia models just don't do it for me esthetically (not considering utility which I won't comment on since I haven't handled one). This wasn't always the case. Back in the day I thought they were great and longed to get one but was not able at the time. I even found a forum where they were all the rage. Times and production swords have changed and now they don't appeal to me.
Great times we live in for sword lovers. Hey, I'm liking some of that new stuff Hanwei's coming up with.
Mccamper25, for the criteria given and you not wanting to cut with it, I'd go with one of the longer H/T swords from Kult of Athena.
|
|
ChrisA
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,240
|
Post by ChrisA on Jan 8, 2011 19:14:56 GMT
Corey, I think the discussion has remained on topic in that everything being discussed is important for a new sword buyer to consider. You can't always stick with the literal questions as a new buyer may not know enough to know what to ask. But yeah, we do tend to stray from topics on these forums and it is helpful to be reminded of that. Tom, I totally agree that the quality of sword is way more important than a sharp edge. However, I think the new(er) VA line is just as good as the H/T line, but that sharp edge makes it a better buy for a first timer (in my opinion!!). So, to me, the choice now on the table is good sword with a good edge with a decent price or good sword with a bad edge with a lower price. For the record, one of the main reason I bought those H/Ts was that poor edge so that I might learn how to sharpen them.
|
|
TomK
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,377
|
Post by TomK on Jan 8, 2011 19:34:24 GMT
Chris, I completely understand where you are coming from. especially when we consider longswords for cutting the AT304 from VA is the best thing in the sub $300 market for sure, but the VA swords cost more than the HT. I don't have a problem recommending a new guy to buy a sword that is $30-ish more but I do have a problem recommending one that is $100-ish more. the only reasons VA swords didn't come up here in my posts is that I felt the price difference was too much.
once you sharpen up a HT sword it is just as good if not a better cutter than the VA swords. the VA swords still look better, and have better detailing though. there's no getting around that Sonny does awesome work on the leather.
|
|
|
Post by RicWilly on Jan 8, 2011 19:59:47 GMT
Tom, would you say the H/T bastard cuts better than the VA LS? The VA cut's better than the H/T LS for me but I don't have a the H/T bastard to compare it with (yet).
I would have mentioned the VA LS if the op was interested in cutting. It may cost more but it's within the stated price range.
|
|
|
Post by johnapsega on Jan 9, 2011 0:05:45 GMT
WOW
Tom I agree with you entirely while I love my Iberia line model I understand that while to me it handles very good it handles not like a real sword that would have been used to kill someone back in the day. When I show people my swords I use the H/T as a example for this very reason because the look and feel are far more accurate. That does not mean that the Iberia is worthless. I recommend them if the op happens to be on a tight budget because I think they are tough and ok cutters and they are sharp even thought with a secondary bevel it is really sharp. I wish that the Iberia line was maybe 20 dollars cheaper then I might actually buy another one but as it stands now the one I have is the only one i'm going to get.
However if people want quality then I would automatically recommend the H/T line because I have one and i love it, I have not yet goten a VA, and i beleive just like others including yourself Tom that the H/T swords are the best value for the money,or so I understand people beleive.
I have much more to learn and I must admit that I am still a novice on how blades should handle because I have not handled any excpet the two I own. I apologize for being so argumentitive and I can only hope that one day I will know as much about swords and swording as you do, the same goes for many other members of this forum.
Cory I agree that sharpening is important in keeping up with the maintenance of our blades and as far as I know as soon a I have the time and extra money I will begin practicing on my Iberia line sword and soon I hope to be at least moderately good at it. As for others especially if one is going to buy blunt swords then it is important to learn to sharpen your blades. Right now I cant find the proper grit sand paper. and suggestions on where I can find the proper grit that I need.
Also I do believe that one of my major problems is that I probably take reviews way to seriously lol this comes from not truly knowing what I want or like in a sword so I am simply experimenting with different ones right now.
Major Corry Yea I blame myself for kinda derailing this however to the OP this could be very valuable info especially if im not mistaken he just bought an Iberia line blade.
RicWilly Its probably best that you didn't get one a while ago because as far as I know they were nothing but SLO's
I also love the new swords that Hanwei is coming out with I love the Crecy for example.
And finally to the OP I wold say get a Iberia if you just want something to have a little fun with. However if you want to get into serious collecting then get a H/T because they are the best sword under 200 dollars and then if you decide to cut either learn to sharpen or get into more expensive weapons like the VA's and up.
Thanks for listening and I apologize if my rant went on for to long John
|
|
Greg
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,800
|
Post by Greg on Jan 9, 2011 0:47:01 GMT
I swear this is the 3rd time I've posted here, so I'll make this brief.
The VA Practical Longsword was my first. I loved the way it handled and it's ability to cut. Even if I could go back in time, I wouldn't pick any other.
If you go for the H/T lines, they handle well, but the edges are a bit... off. If you only think you'll want to do dry drills, then the HTs would suffice. But after so many dry drills, you may want to start cutting, which is where having a good edge helps a lot. Nothing killed a cutting session like the time I got my H/T Great Sword of War and went to cut with it only to have it bat the bottles across the yard. I knew my edge alignment was good, but the edge was stopping the cut.
|
|
|
Post by johnapsega on Jan 9, 2011 1:19:22 GMT
This is why they were talking about sharpening because the H/T's are good swords with an edge problem. To me even putting a secondary bevel on them would make them better then they are now.
|
|
Greg
Senior Forumite
Posts: 1,800
|
Post by Greg on Jan 9, 2011 1:34:56 GMT
Eh, I can't agree with the secondary bevel. My GSOW had a nasty secondary bevel. It impacted so hard that the edge that did come from the bevel only started the explosion point.
Either way, I suppose it boils down to taste at this point for the OP
|
|
|
Post by johnapsega on Jan 9, 2011 3:28:04 GMT
I agree its all in personal taste.
and as far the the bevel goes I find it hard to believe that medieval swords didn't have them.
|
|
Lunaman
Senior Forumite
Posts: 3,974
|
Post by Lunaman on Jan 9, 2011 3:32:10 GMT
What? Why? I've seen dozens of authentic medieval swords with my own eyes that had no secondary bevel present, so I can assure you that it's worth believing. People don't say medieval swords didn't have secondary bevels because they're speculating--they say that because we still HAVE A BUNCH OF THEM AROUND and they don't have secondary bevels. That's just one of the oddest statements I've read on this site. Some period examples did have secondary bevels, of course( usually to support an cross-section that's quite thin, or on blades that were severely re-honed during their use) but many many MANY did not. I'd say the majority I've seen did not. Here are a couple examples:
|
|
|
Post by johnapsega on Jan 9, 2011 5:47:21 GMT
Lunaman
All I was trying to say is that I find it hard to believe that they are not historical. I have no problem believing that all swords that came out of the forge had normal desired edges. However I find it very hard to believe that a normal sword user who was in a hurry or trying to fix damage caused by a fight would not put a secondary bevel on a sword because its far easier. I just think that it is historically plausible so why totally refuse them on grounds of historical in accuracy.
|
|
|
Post by johnapsega on Jan 9, 2011 9:41:06 GMT
That is amazing it just goes to show that anything done right can be really good even secondary bevels.
|
|
TomK
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,377
|
Post by TomK on Jan 9, 2011 17:11:58 GMT
there were swords in history with secondary bevels, especially military sabres and such. the thing is swords did find their way into the hands of people who would fight with them but not know how to sharpen them well. there are stories of soldiers sharpening their swords on the steps of public buildings, 19th century military manuals describe how to sharpen sabres with a file the night before a battle. there were many times in history that fighting men had to do a rush job and the sword got a sloppy edge for it. so yes, it happened. I do believe that the ones we have surviving show that there is a right way to do it and it was done that way when possible. however we don't have anything that proves what method was preferred.
|
|
|
Post by Cold Napalm on Jan 9, 2011 19:48:18 GMT
On secondary bevels...yes they existed on historical blades...but the vast majority of those swords (and sword finds in general) are battle field finds. And of all the sword find examples, a vast majority does not have a secondary bevel. So we can draw some theories from this. Such as either the edge style was not favored or was used on lower quality sword that just did not survive. Since you see secondary bevels more on battle field swords then not, you can also theorize that that edge style was something used in the field because of simplicty or quickness or any other reason...or once again religated to lower quality swords as the best swords would have been collected off the field. However, from doing tests of both edges...the secondary bevel is the worse performing edge of the two when your talking about cleaving flesh or attempting to bypass light armor. I think our ancestors were smart enough to want the things that work better...especially with their lives on the line. It's like going, well you can have this m-16 that works just fine...or this one that has a slightly dinged bolt that causes it to be slightly less accurate...so which one did you want to take into war with you again? Now on topic...if you want a true two hander, the H/T GSOW is the only real game in town for that price point. VA does not have one of those...and things like the hanwei lowlander or various windlass swords have some quality issues and as such, unless I absolutely loved how they look, I wouldn't risk the hassle. And while I agree with Tom in principle, I also do realize that there are people who just can't do it. Be a mental, physical or a combination of both. But that's what money is for . Just make sure they know how to sharpen swords as most knife sharpeners don't. Or ask a forumite even maybe. Tom has a nice sharpening set up an home, I have access to a blacksmith and hell even sonny of VA has a custom shop option that can sharpen your sword.
|
|