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Post by Cold Napalm on Oct 10, 2010 19:40:20 GMT
Yeah most proper shobu blades are quite a bit of massive omph. Whioch makes them oh so much fun hehe. Hehe you mean like my albion crecy  . |
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Post by johnapsega on Oct 10, 2010 20:48:39 GMT
I dont know if this has already been said but the reproduction model of each sword could mean a lot.
if it was a 3,000$ katana matched with a windlass longsword that could make a huge difference.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 10, 2010 21:02:26 GMT
It has, in a manner of speaking. Student of Sword brought it up by saying that, in the second clip, they pit a bohi katana of the Edo style against an unfullered longsword. I think someone else mentioned the possibility of the sword in the OP being a Windlass, too.
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Post by johnapsega on Oct 10, 2010 21:36:25 GMT
To me it looks like the Verneuil Sword by windlass but I might be wrong.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Oct 10, 2010 22:03:59 GMT
That's an unwarranted assumption. Not that someone doesn't have training but that said someone has no bias regardless of his training (or lack thereof).
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Post by D'artagnan on Oct 11, 2010 23:47:12 GMT
So, there has been all this talk about bias and un-bias, "expert", sword "noobs" if you will and others on their opinions of which is the best sword. Instead of speculating, why don't a group of us, the forumites check it out. I'm sure some of the admins mods, and just regular forumites have enough training and knowledge for some of us to be considered experts. We have fantastic cutters, fantastic designers, fantastic collectors, and fantastic warriors. Why don't we all get together and try these two out for ourselves and then make our own decision. Hell, we could even post it on youtube or some blog and it could end up being a show. That way we can try and be objective, pick swords with similar geometry, and similar eras and the speculation would be settled.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 0:42:35 GMT
Jesus, I remember watching this on History Channel. I was practically foaming at the mouth. that's about the time I stopped watching History.
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Greg
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Post by Greg on Oct 12, 2010 1:12:25 GMT
Cheness: A big thank you for translating that for us. I had meant to PM you the other night, but I had forgotten. Consider yourself +1'ed
And that's the only further contribution I have to this thread.
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 12, 2010 1:29:07 GMT
Why do people insist on comparing apples and oranges? It is futile!
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Post by D'artagnan on Oct 12, 2010 2:39:19 GMT
Well, first of all apples and oranges are both fruit...
Secondly they both have juice
And thirdly ask any pirate you know and they will tell you that apples and oranges both prevent scurvy
Arrrrr matey
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TomK
Member
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Post by TomK on Oct 12, 2010 3:12:49 GMT
right and some people love apples and hate oranges, others hate apples and love oranges, some people only like raspberries, and some people don't like fruit at all.
I have both katana and Euro swords in my collection and I have pretty decent quality ones too. I have done a lot with both types and I can tell you with certainty that they are both wonderful sword types
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Post by Cold Napalm on Oct 12, 2010 8:31:27 GMT
Because that STILL doesn't work. Taking historical weapons out of context to compare them anacronistically is rather a useless exercise. Since swords in the modern world really doesn't serve a purpose. So what cuts a tatami mat better? Yeah we can find that out. What sword can get banged into a wooded post and survive the best...yep can find that out too. Which sword does X action the best we can figure out. Which sword is best for a fight...we can't. Somebody may like the short katana blade best. Somebody may like the 38 inch XVIIIe blade best. There is just SO much variable into a fight that the only way to know which sword is best for you in a fight is to use one...in a fight. And before you go into the sparring debate...that won't help. All that tells us that peron x can beat person Y when using weapons a and b. But then again sparring is fun...so no reason not to spar anyways (with proper gear of course).
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Oct 12, 2010 10:00:21 GMT
Got some things to say about that German TV show. In my opinion, they did their best to make the whole thing fair:
1. Got a famous swordsmith to make BOTH swords
2. Got he same guy to do the testing, assuring that all factors are as equal as possible. Btw, if this guy says he thinks the longsword to be superior, he has good reasons to do so, that’s for sure.
3. Did the same tests with both sword, unlike one of you mentioned, they used a new sword for the test with the longsword. This can be seen when the longsword cracks the other sword but the edge of the bottom sword is unharmed except for he place where the longsword hits, this also shows that they didn’t just turn the sword around.
4. They don’t favor the longsword at all, in fact they spend more time with the kat, explaining the forging process, hardening and polishing, etc.
All in all, I can’t think of a better way to compare these swords. And who can blame them for reasoning that the longsword ist the better sword if it did indeed prove to be so? It’s quite simpe, you got two swords, both perform equally in all tests but the last one and so you resume that one sword is better. Period. Nothing to argue about.
This doesn’t mean that the longsword’s always the superior sword, just from a performance point of view it.
Btw, Stefan Roth is quite respected in Japan, even the usually very careful Japanese acknowledge his skills. His kats are pretty darn expensive, too. These are good swords!!
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Post by D'artagnan on Oct 12, 2010 16:37:33 GMT
[/quote]
We aren't trying to decide a fight though. Forumites can do that exact same video, with our own equipment and then decide for ourselves. The OP was comparing the longsword and katana based on certain points, none of it had anything to do with which is better in a fight. All I'm saying is that instead of speculating we could do this same thing ourselves instead of critiquing the video. No one said anything about sparring.
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Greg
Senior Forumite
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Post by Greg on Oct 12, 2010 16:41:49 GMT
I lied.
I think what Roth was trying to do here was to actually try the myth that katanas "can cut through other swords." (Apparently he doesn't get Myth Busters up there)
So I think what might be lost in translation is "If I were gonna set out to try and break a sword, I'd probably use a longsword... but it's a good thing that no one ever sets out to slice another sword in half because they know it's folly."
Also, while we are on the subject of apples and oranges:
For tho's of you who know, what were the tempering methods used in the different eras of Japan? I'm assuming that through hardening is only a recent thing and that the majority of swords in japan are differentially hardened?
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Oct 12, 2010 18:57:20 GMT
To my knowledge, the japanese differently hardened all their kats to all periods of time. Once they did have straight swords but I don't remember how these were heat treated.
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Greg
Senior Forumite
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Post by Greg on Oct 12, 2010 19:03:58 GMT
Well, call me crazy, but isn't the majority of a DH blade made of a "soft" metal with the edge of the katana being made harder so that it holds an edge better? So it would only be logical to assume that if the katana, as a whole, were softer then the through hardened euro, the it would bend when introduced to tho's stresses?
I don't think this is a question of "They used the wrong blade from the wrong era" but if all katanas were traditionally DH'ed, then they would all be softer then the TH'ed euro. Doesn't mean that they were any less of a sword, in fact, if I could choose between a bent sword and a shattered sword to try and take into combat, I'd choose the bent one.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 12, 2010 19:17:16 GMT
You could just think of it as an oddly shaped falcata!
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Post by Cold Napalm on Oct 13, 2010 4:00:11 GMT
Define soft. There are many euro examples that are in the high 30s low 40s on the rockwell scale. And some may have been even in the 20s.
And the range of hardness is also true of japanese swords.
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Greg
Senior Forumite
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Post by Greg on Oct 13, 2010 16:31:50 GMT
Well, there you have it. I was trying to give you katana fan boys a way out. But euro's rule, katanas drool.
Apples are better then oranges because apples make better pie. Take THAT oranges!
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