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Post by chuckinohio on Oct 10, 2010 5:52:20 GMT
A question about warring period blades for you-
The blades you mentioned are more sturdily built for the purpose of dealing with an armored opponent correct?
An armored opponent was not commonly encountered in the Edo period then, or does something else account for the shift in blade geometry?
I am not trying to perpetuate an argument, I simply don't know, and would like to.
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Post by Student of Sword on Oct 10, 2010 6:06:46 GMT
By the Edo Time, there was no more war. But people still duel, unarmored. Also there were more incidents of intrigue such as assasination. A quicker blade became more important than a sturdy blade. The same thing happened in Europe, at approximately the same period. The heavier cut-and-trust became the rapier became the smallsword.
I find this comparision silly because it is impossible to do any comparision. It is truly apple and orange. Anyone attempting to prove that such-and-such as sword is better than such-and-such as sword is a dishonest sensationalist.
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Post by chuckinohio on Oct 10, 2010 6:09:10 GMT
Makes perfect sense, thank you for the information.
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Post by mikejapan on Oct 10, 2010 6:12:31 GMT
Honestly.. both swords have their qualities.
It all comes down to the swordsmanship of the wielders.
Katanas have a single edge blade, elegance, easier to use, and have great slicing power.
While longswords are massive, double edged, heavy, and have a slight reach advantage.
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Post by Hyoujinsama on Oct 10, 2010 6:15:31 GMT
Katana are not all "elegant" and they are not really all that easy to use effectively. The same can be said about European blades.
Massive and heavy, however, is not a good description of western swords. I've handled Euro blades that were much lighter and flightier in the hand than most of my katana.
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Post by Ceebs on Oct 10, 2010 7:22:55 GMT
The average Longsword weighs around 3 pounds. That isn't heavy by any stretch of the imagination. And ease of use is completely and utterly subjective.
To learn the art swordsmanship with either weapon takes years of study and practice to become proficient.
When you first see someone's sword being displaced with a krumphau (very cool and quite startling if you've never experienced it before) I can assure you that the art of the longsword is just as elegant as that of the Katana.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 10, 2010 7:33:05 GMT
I have no real knowledge of European swordsmanship (though I would be interested in learning; I figure, I'm learning Chinese and Japanese swordsmanship, as well as dabbling in a bit of Korean, so why not round it out with Euro?), so I had to go look at the krumphau and that's pretty vicious, yet quite elegant. I think most people (and I am no exception to a point) get their concept of Euro swords being heavy and the swordsmanship being less refined through movies wherein they show knights in full armor bashing at each other with rather slow strikes.
But on that note, who can really think Euro swordsmanship is ungainly after seeing Mike in action?
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Post by Ceebs on Oct 10, 2010 7:55:57 GMT
I think you hit it on the head mate. Unfortunately, it's going to take years, if not decades to repair the damage that Hollywood and many years of ignorant academics have done. Here's an obligatory video that always comes up in these situations And another regarding the heaviness of armour as it's rather related to the topic of Euro swordsmanship. Hmmm, the youtube tags don't seem to be working :? |
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 10, 2010 8:02:39 GMT
Well, it's also thanks to Hollywood that believe a katana will cut through a tank and that's not going away anytime soon; especially after movies like Kill Bill. Plus, when it comes to movies, they go for flashy, so there's rarely any accurate sword fighting in them, though I'd say there are plenty of techniques across the world that are flashy, yet still effective and historically accurate.
By the way, Chris; to post a video, you only need the bit of the link after the '=' sign, which you can find best in the 'share portion' on its video page.
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Post by bloodwraith on Oct 10, 2010 8:08:05 GMT
Having experience with both japanese swordsmanship and western swordsmanship I can safely say that there is nothing ungainly about either the longsword or the techniques employed. I actually find the longsword easier to fight with because of the double edge and the length advantage. Also I have handled western swords that moved alot better even though they were considerably heavier than katana. I have also seen very experienced martial artists sparring liechtenauer against ninjutsu swordsmanship and there isn't really a weakness in either style in terms of either swords or art.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 10, 2010 8:30:07 GMT
I only think a longsword would really be ungainly to someone who's not used to its length, which would probably include me as the longest sword I've handled is a katana and I prefer swords that are shorter and one handed. In the end, it really comes down to who's better with their particular weapon, as I'm sure a master swordsman with a short sword could overcome a skilled swordsman with a longsword.
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Post by Lukas MG (chenessfan) on Oct 10, 2010 9:05:47 GMT
They're just describing the damage on the katana, saying that it'd be impossible to use it for further fighting and stress that all the guys saying "the katana can easily cut through another steel blade" (the so called experts) apparently never tried it out. With the longsword the basically say the opposite thing, showing that it could easily be used again and resume by acknowledging the medieval longsword as the true "super-sword". Stefan Roth states that he expected exactly this and feels confirmed in his believe that the medieval sword is superior to the japanese katana.
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Aaron
Member
Senior Forumite
Posts: 2,369
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Post by Aaron on Oct 10, 2010 9:27:22 GMT
I enjoy how they are using a Gen2 12th Century sword as the cutting target. It is well-known that the sword is heavily overbuilt and a far cry from historical. They also don't switch to a new sword-target after the katana's blow creates fatal stress fractures in it.
Just like the tests favoring the katana, this video is heavily biased and performs zero objective criticism. As for the video in the OP, both swords are cheap low-end swords. The longsword looks to be a Windlass model, which would explain it's flex and crappy thrusting because of it. I am surprised it didn't cut the leather, even with it being a thrust-oriented sword. I would guess a poor edge and R. Lee's lack of experience.
I would really love to see an unbiased television program about this. Even if it's just one.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 10, 2010 9:37:05 GMT
That was my point, especially after Chenessfan translated. They're Germans testing a German longsword that they're convinced is the ultimate sword, so of course they're going to favor it. In addition, Student pointed out that the katana used was of the Edo period and not meant for use against armor, unlike the longsword, so it was weaker. They were basically setting it up to fail. With regards to the OP video, I think that the major factor was mostly that it may not have had an edge, since it left a pretty deep dent in the leather.
I'd do it, but I'm not a director and I have my own bias (I favor one handed swords, especially one handed slashers). Then again, I want to learn multiple types of swordsmanship and while my preferred weapon is a one handed sword, I'll use anything that works. But I agree, I'd love to see an unbiased program about the pros and cons of different swords.
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Post by CarlosCordeiro on Oct 10, 2010 14:35:00 GMT
I have to ask why didn´t they use a katana without a bo-hi? They compare a European sword without any fuller to a flimsy and light katana with a deep and wide groove. Doesn´t sound very fair to me.
Also, I´m kind of befuddled by the whole thing.Comparing a longsword to a katana is like trying to find out which one is the better car, a Porsche or a Land Rover. It depends, doesn´t it? Better at what? And when?
Oh, well...
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 10, 2010 15:06:26 GMT
There's the rub. Given ChenessFan's translation, they didn't want it to be fair, what with their talk of proving their German longsword superior to the legendary katana and the remarks of 'as I expected' when the katana bent.
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Post by Bogus on Oct 10, 2010 17:10:47 GMT
Me too, though unfortunately that would require many thousands of dollars worth of swords, targets, and experts in both construction and use of the respective swords. Maybe some mechanical engineers too, since I'd like to know why a particular sword in a particular pairing did the job better, not just that it did. So probably the only people who would try would be swordmakers or a TV show, and they're all pretty biased.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 10, 2010 17:29:36 GMT
It'd basically be Deadliest Warrior, but focusing on the swords themselves. I'm not so sure the sword smiths would really take the initiative, whereas TV shows almost never feature realistic techniques, so it's a lose-lose situation. The only thing we could really hope for is if we could get some SBG members into positions that could make a show like this happen. Get the smiths as consultants, the masters as the demonstrators, bring in armor of all types from gambesons to hauberks to chain to scale to plate, maybe even some mirror, as well as swords of all types and just go to town. Hell, if the masters would consent, we could even feature sparring matches between the two masters of the particular episode to show how the differences in technique would play into the factor. I think it'd be really cool to see and it'd show all the pros and cons of every style of sword combined with its historical techniques.
I wonder what kind of call there'd be for something like that...
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Post by Bogus on Oct 10, 2010 17:37:03 GMT
I'm all for it, though I can't really offer anything to speak of outside of maybe what I as a mostly objective viewer would be interested in seeing. Perhaps somebody like Cold Steel would be willing to sponsor it in hopes of drumming up some interest in buying swords.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Oct 10, 2010 17:44:51 GMT
Perhaps, but I would hope they wouldn't expect us to use their swords, since there tends to be a general consensus on here that some of their fittings are less than satisfactory at best. Plus, they don't make a very wide variety of swords, plus, some of the prime swords to be tested that they did make are discontinued, though they could use it to display new material or maybe bring back some old stuff.
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