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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2010 23:22:59 GMT
Garrett and I have discussed how the Han Jian form seems to be very popular in the market, despite it being much older with very little surviving information on its use vs. the more contemporary Qing jian. Personally I don't like the round grip as it makes blade alignment very difficult, there was a reason swords evolved to have flattened oval grip cross sections.
Perhaps it's the perception of it being a 'manly' sword with its size.
I have an antique that I will be replicating with Garrett's help, it's a late Qing Jian with 30.5" long blade (fairly long) and a very wide blade...43mm wide at its base. It looks like a Viking sword blade...or like the wide bladed sword in the Conan movie. While shorter than the Han jian available it seems to be a very vicious cutter while still stiff enough for thrusts. The thin blade thickens a bit near the tip to reinforce the sword tip.
Guard is atypical, not ace of spades but a small seed pod shape.
Anyone else interested in such a blade profile? Despite its size, it handles like a typical Qing era jian so you can use it for Tai Chi and other surviving Chinese sword arts.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 1:19:13 GMT
Though I know very little of Chinese weapons, and I could only speak of my own experience, I really like the fittings of the swords that exist during the warring state/Han dynasty... the disc pommel, scabbard slide & chape and the small guard. I really prefer these fittings compare to the Qing fittings...maybe because it has so much in common as a roman spatha. Though you might be right that Han jians were considered manly compared to Qing, I am more attracted to the fittings, design than the overall size of the sword...afterall one could get a customized 32 inch sword with Qing fittings eh... (though it might not handle like one).
I am personally interested if there are pictures available about this Qing sword you mentioned. It the blade profile lenticular or a diamond profile? Any pictures on the reinforced points? It reminds me a lot of the Pompeii gladius from the Guttmann collection.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 2:06:01 GMT
Got some pics of the original? I'd like to be able to see what you're writing about.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 3:17:30 GMT
Pictures would help.
I personally go for more the Tang dynasty style jian myself. I like the slimmer styling.
I would guess, and this is just an opinion, that the Han style is due to it being featured a lot recently in movies. I would say a lot of the Chinese blade upsurge has to do with the Chinese film making actually showing a lot more of the more authentic weapons in recent years. Really ever since the Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon we have seen higher and high level of Chinese movies coming out depicting the use of more and more authentic weapons. The swords are making it to market as movie SLO replicas but it is also inspiring people to make them in functional swords as this interest level rises.
So lets cheer on the Chinese movies that are helping us get better quality authentic swords. Lets hope they keep putting these epic historical movies of ancient Chinese warfare that inspire more swords to be made. Hopefully we will one day have much better choice for Chinese blades that are functional.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 6:40:50 GMT
Sorry to hijack....but isn't the Han Jian mentioned, belongs to the Qin period and not the later Han? I've spoken to a few knowledgeable people and that seems to be the consensus. I can understand why Zheng Wu whom designed that particular Jian and for all purposes called it Han for marketing sake. Gundogqy good call on the similarities between Jians and Viking swords, I've been looking around for possible connections between the Vikings and the Chinese and how they could have come in contact with one another. So far I've found no such evidence but there has been coins found in china that belongs to the Vikings. Oh yeah and could you post some pictures of your Jian? that would be swell....... I myself are really interested in bringing some of the more rarer Chinese weapons back and I've got lots and lots of antiques photo's of some really interesting Chinese weapon. Here's interesting beast of a Jian ;D  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 7:05:46 GMT
Picture posted as per Gundoggy's request:  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 7:52:34 GMT
That is a cool style hilt I would say. Simple and practical. I like it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 9:13:41 GMT
That is one stout blade you've got there, practical indeed....reminds me of these Jian's with similar stout blade profiles  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 12:22:08 GMT
Picture posted as per Gundoggy's request: yeah i could go for something like that. the gueard resembles lotus huh? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 13:15:42 GMT
The blade is not 'stout'. I do own antiques with thick heavy blades.
This one starts out at 5mm thick narrows down to about 2.5mm at the thinnest portion then increases to about 3mm thick near the tip.
It has a flexibility approaching some European swords, but is still stiff enough for a thrust. Like I said before, it resembles a Viking blade.
Weight of the sword is around 2 lbs. It is not very heavy despite its size.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 16:25:13 GMT
I've been looking around for possible connections between the Vikings and the Chinese and how they could have come in contact with one another. So far I've found no such evidence but there has been coins found in china that belongs to the Vikings. There has been trade and immigration along the silk road for 5,000 years. Tall, red-haired whites settled in a basin in the mountains to the North West of China, just South of the road 4,000 years ago and lived there for 500. No one seems to know what became of them as of yet. |
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Post by shadowhowler on Aug 17, 2010 18:31:34 GMT
Tall, red-haired whites settled in a basin in the mountains to the North West of China, just South of the road 4,000 years ago and lived there for 500. No one seems to know what became of them as of yet.  Do you have any more information on this...? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 20:57:27 GMT
Well, I'm a euro guy but I really like that blade concept. A bare blade, that'd be nice  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2010 22:49:39 GMT
Picture posted as per Gundoggy's request: Actually, it is quite a nice, simple design which is what I prefer. I definately don't like the fuller but then, I've never seen a jian with a fuller that I liked. If the blade's details were smoothed out (ie, the tip was less jagged and the blade's lines were straighter) and the fuller was removed, it would be a very attractive sword but at that point it would just be a typical late Qing jian with an unusual style of guard. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2010 1:21:15 GMT
The tip is smooth, what you are seeing is the patina on a small photo. The edges are straight except for a shallow dip on one side where a nick was polished out. The fuller is about 6mm wide and about .5 - .75 mm deep and is necessary to keep the weight down, it also stiffens the thin blade via I-Beam effect.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2010 4:07:29 GMT
I like that jian. I like it a lot. I would definitely be interested in purchasing a reproduction of it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2010 5:41:05 GMT
me too! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2010 14:06:13 GMT
Wow, that's not a bad looking sword at all. Somewhat strange in appearance, but altogether it's pretty interesting.
As far as the Han Jian design goes, the main reason why I wanted it was because it has a slim profile. I know that it's supposed to be a "beefy" looking sword, but modern interpretations of it tend to be slender, and mine is no exception to that. The handguard is pretty small, and the blade is long and narrow. I like slender, sleek looking swords, so this design looked great to me... at least the version I got from Garrett anyway.
You're right about the handle though:the oval grip that was developed later on is much better for handling. However I have not really had a problem with it. Even blade alignment is fine: the cord grips have a unique knot structure so that you can easily use it to tell where the blade is. If that doesn't work for you, simply use the handguard as a reference. If your index finger is placed right at the bottom of the guard, then you can also get an idea of your blade alignment.
Maybe I should post up some pics or something in case that sounds confusing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2010 17:33:10 GMT
You're right about the handle though:the oval grip that was developed later on is much better for handling. However I have not really had a problem with it. Even blade alignment is fine: the cord grips have a unique knot structure so that you can easily use it to tell where the blade is. If that doesn't work for you, simply use the handguard as a reference. If your index finger is placed right at the bottom of the guard, then you can also get an idea of your blade alignment. Maybe I should post up some pics or something in case that sounds confusing. wow... that is a great explanation Sage. the pics might help, but you wrote that good enough for me to get a good idea what you are talking about. i had always wondered how to reference the alignment on round handle. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2010 6:48:52 GMT
Gundogqy good call on the similarities between Jians and Viking swords, I've been looking around for possible connections between the Vikings and the Chinese and how they could have come in contact with one another. So far I've found no such evidence but there has been coins found in china that belongs to the Vikings. Interesting point. Although the Viking grip checks differed from the Han checks, the blades had similarities; but the Saxon and Celtic swords have more in common with northmen models. The connection between the Han jian and Europe occurred in the 1st century when the Alans-- descendents of the Saka/Massagetae who lived in western China-- arrived in the Kuban, then the Rumanian steppe, and up onto the Hungarian Plain. Their swords were long, two-handed gripped, and narrow-bladed, hanging from typical Han scabbard slide. So the historical-archaeological link is through the Alans, also called the Sarmatians. The Han Dynasty sword evolved to the Alanic model, then to the "Migration era sword" or the "Black Sea style." It had a deep yet straight grip check, which continually became wider and narrower until it influenced Frankish and later "cruxiform" swords, finally becoming the "crusader sword." The Viking grip check extended from the Saxon model, sweeping down; and the pommel remained tri-lobate, as were the earlier Saxon and Angle pommels. And as you noted-- coins travel a great distance from their point of origin. Viking coins have also been found in Canada. |
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