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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 3, 2010 4:35:16 GMT
I'm a glutton. A veritable pig! I own 19 Albion swords as of today (bought one last night). Whats the new edition??? You have 19 Albion’s???!!!!!? ..... 19 .... That’s just ....wow ....I wish I had 19 swords but 19 Albion’s. that’s my idea of heaven. Yeah... he has just as many Atrims as well... his sword collection is mind-blowing. I enjoyed just being in the room with all those blades. Some of em have some interesting stories attached to them too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2010 4:40:46 GMT
I find it pitiful some people have chosen the, "Well, I'll never buy anything from them. I hope they go out of business" route. Or at the very least appearing gloatful over the concept.
Do you have to buy from them? No. Are they obligated to provide a sword for a fixed price? No.
Albion is made of people just like you and me, people who need to earn a living, and for some people, these swords are their only source of income. I am sure they had to look at the number of sales compared to prior years and determined if it would effect their product line.
Am I going to buy an Albion? At this cost I doubt I can afford it, especially with my interest now mostly with japanese swords.
However, given the cost of American labor, of materials,and the work put into designing them, how much would be a good price? Maybe perhaps with the product they put out they have been under selling themselves. Maybe the price may be too high now, maybe they passed an equilibrium but the economy has hit them hard, who knows. Look at the forum we are discussing this in now. Most people here seem very content with $60 katana, and Darksword crowbars. Likely almost everyone saying they aren't buying a sword probably were never going to buy one.
I hope they do well. I don't like the price increase, but that's fine, they aren't entitled to do anything that suits my wishes. I personally think people could be a little more mature and understanding of it though.
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Post by kidcasanova on Jul 3, 2010 4:57:34 GMT
I find it pitiful some people have chosen the, "Well, I'll never buy anything from them. I hope they go out of business" route. Or at the very least appearing gloatful over the concept. Do you have to buy from them? No. Are they obligated to provide a sword for a fixed price? No. Albion is made of people just like you and me, people who need to earn a living, and for some people, these swords are their only source of income. I am sure they had to look at the number of sales compared to prior years and determined if it would effect their product line. Am I going to buy an Albion? At this cost I doubt I can afford it, especially with my interest now mostly with japanese swords. However, given the cost of American labor, of materials,and the work put into designing them, how much would be a good price? Maybe perhaps with the product they put out they have been under selling themselves. Maybe the price may be too high now, maybe they passed an equilibrium but the economy has hit them hard, who knows. Look at the forum we are discussing this in now. Most people here seem very content with $60 katana, and Darksword crowbars. Likely almost everyone saying they aren't buying a sword probably were never going to buy one. I hope they do well. I don't like the price increase, but that's fine, they aren't entitled to do anything that suits my wishes. I personally think people could be a little more mature and understanding of it though. Several of the people who say they wont buy directly from Albion have owned them in the past. Myself included. I loved the Knight I owned but did not feel a connection with it that screamed "This justifies 800 dollars." I actually feel much more attached to my VA Crusader, which was half the price. Will I ever own another Albion? Most likely yes. I would love to try out a Templar or a Hospitaller. But I certainly wont be buying it directly from Albion. And I understand that American labor is expensive, as are materials and the cost of research. But with the sword market churning out high performing, very historically plausible swords for less than half the price of a good number of Albion's swords, they will start to slip from their niche if they can't stay competitive. This is compounded by the fact that several excellent custom smiths are now within the price range of a new Albion. I like Albion, I like their swords and I'd like to own a couple more, but I cannot stand behind a business decision like that given the current state of the sword market.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2010 15:55:37 GMT
I find it pitiful some people have chosen the, "Well, I'll never buy anything from them. I hope they go out of business" route. Or at the very least appearing gloatful over the concept. Do you have to buy from them? No. Are they obligated to provide a sword for a fixed price? No. Albion is made of people just like you and me, people who need to earn a living, and for some people, these swords are their only source of income. I am sure they had to look at the number of sales compared to prior years and determined if it would effect their product line. However, given the cost of American labor, of materials,and the work put into designing them, how much would be a good price? Maybe perhaps with the product they put out they have been under selling themselves. Maybe the price may be too high now, maybe they passed an equilibrium but the economy has hit them hard, who knows. To be fair I don't see anyone saying, or remotely implying "I hope they go out of business" and certainly no one seems to be gloating. If anything the postings here seem more sad than anything. Bottom line is Albion's bottom line. If they raise prices and see a drop in profits they will lower their prices. If they see an increase in profits they know they did the right thing. They have to get the most dollar per sword that the market will support or go out of business. If anyone doesn't like the increase don't buy the swords. It's that simple. And the retail increase will affect the second hand market as well, to be certain, so everyone wanting an Albion will be affected to some degree. Whether they are worth this price is up to the individual buyer. I am sure there are plenty of people that will suffer this price increase to get their Albions. Personally for a $1000 I'd rather go to Odin and get a sword to my specifications for a couple of hundred (give or take) more. To me, that is a much better value on my dollar. Do I wish Albion bad? In no way, shape or form! They are an important part of our sword community. But I do not feel their swords are not worth this much money.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2010 19:13:20 GMT
"Albion is raising prices again... Good luck with that... Now, it may not matter to Albion, but I'll not be purchasing anything else from them in the future." "There is no way that they are getting their hands on my money... at least not until they run that final "going out of business" sale." "Now, it may not matter to Albion, but I'll not be purchasing anything else from them in the future." That was just a quick browsing. In reading these posts, it seems some people think Albion needs to provide them a product at a fixed price, and the idea of increasing their price is downright insulting. Well, if you can't aford a blade of theirs, go elsewhere, or get a squire line blade. That's the problem I have, the feeling we are owed something by the company. Me, I would rather get a custom made blade at this price as well. Doesn't mean when Albion raises their price I'm going to respond as if the cost of food, rent, gasoline, or other vital products or services go up.
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 3, 2010 19:19:01 GMT
That was just a quick browsing. In reading these posts, it seems some people think Albion needs to provide them a product at a fixed price, and the idea of increasing their price is downright insulting. Well, if you can't aford a blade of theirs, go elsewhere, or get a squire line blade. That's the problem I have, the feeling we are owed something by the company. Me, I would rather get a custom made blade at this price as well. Doesn't mean when Albion raises their price I'm going to respond as if the cost of food, rent, gasoline, or other vital products or services go up. A valid point... I do not have any desire to see Albion go out of buissness... I'm a huge fan. I've had a few Albion swords over the past couple years... I only have one currently, but there are at least 5 that I would really, REALLY want to get my hands on. For me, the price incress is just sad, because it means I'm not likely to be able to afford those swords I want... because at that price, there are other things I'd want more. I don't bare them any ill will tho.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2010 20:54:18 GMT
I wanted to get a Gaddjhalt when it was $680. It was expensive then, even more expensive now. Of course, looking at the cost increase, I literally just need to work 2 or 3 extra hours of overtime to make up the difference. Am I going to get a Gaddjhalt? No, probably not. $800 is a bit hefty for me at least, though I could afford it, it might not be worth it to me. At $900? Less likely to get it. Regardless, I'm not going to whine that a high end semi production sword is a little more costly than I can afford.
If Albion makes swords for twice their current cost, and they find buyers, then good for them. I personally hope their price increase actually helps them and makes them more viable.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2010 23:15:13 GMT
I understand your points, ajustice, but nothing you quoted was anything near saying "I hope they go out of business" or any kind of gloating. Most of what you quoted sounds more along the lines of just not liking the price increase. I'm not sure why that bothers you. Of course the consumer is not going to like seeing a price increase, necessary or not. I really doubt anyone is going to say "Hey! You are so awesome: you should charge me more!" or "Thank you so much for taking more of my hard earned money. You need it more than I do." As a consumer we have the choice not to buy a company's product if we feel it is too high. And it is obvious from the posts here that some of us feel that way. As members of a forum we have the right (privilege?) to post how we feel about this price increase. Point of interest to discuss and all that. It's not as if we are writing these thoughts in private emails to Albion, or out picketing in front of their place of business and protesting. It's not as though anyone is saying Albion is not allowed to raise their prices: most are saying they think it is a bad idea or that they are exercising their right as consumers not to buy these products at the new prices and their rights as forumites to post their thoughts about it.
I guess I'm just not sure why that bothers you so much.
Personally, it affect me little as I had no burning interest to buy anything from Albion at their current prices so the increase has little effect on me. From a market viewpoint I don't think it's a good idea. Consumer spending is down. Unemployment is up. Consumer confidence is bottomed out. Is this really a good time to raise prices on such a "luxury" item? In my opinion, and many real economists would likely agree, it is not. But then I am not running their company. I just really hope that they did their research before making this decision.
In a way I'm kinda glad they are raising their prices. Maybe more people will look at the Christian Fletcher/Angus Trim and VA offerings. A bigger bang for the consumer buck in my opinion.
Edited to add: I'm not sure why I posted this. Of course you are entitled to be annoyed at what people are posting as they entitled to post it. Just ignore me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2010 0:03:15 GMT
I understand your points, ajustice, but nothing you quoted was anything near saying "I hope they go out of business" or any kind of gloating. Most of what you quoted sounds more along the lines of just not liking the price increase. I'm not sure why that bothers you. Of course the consumer is not going to like seeing a price increase, necessary or not. I really doubt anyone is going to say "Hey! You are so awesome: you should charge me more!" or "Thank you so much for taking more of my hard earned money. You need it more than I do." [/i][/quote] I am not complaining that people are upset over their higher prices. I was quite upset the first time around when they raised prices. However, at the increase of, what is it, $100, this was the breaking point for many? A "That's it, forget it" type attitude is what I am referring to. Of course we can talk about them having prices too high. Rather than divulging you feel they are too expensive and you can't afford it, some have taken the step of posting like there was some insult delivered or a snub on the part of Albion for not respecting their desire for cheaper weapons. Well, they have cheaper weapons. I agree 100% with anyone who feels Albion is charging too much, I think so as well. I am sure they can find many ways of lowering their overhead. Perhaps the extremely high number of swords they have was just too much to keep in production. It's the "Well, they're not going to get my money NOW" attitude which is what is puzzling me. Did they have the $1100 saved up for an Oakeshott, and was just about to call Mike Sigman when they saw the increase announcement? Or are we just complaining that a US operation simply can't keep prices down to a production blade price which is likely 1/10th the cost and overhead of an American made product? It's very easy to send a design to a production outlet in China or India, sit back, get in the blades, and sell them for 100% profit. I can't tell you how annoying it gets to get an email over a custom blade I am selling, and then have someone ask, "Why is it this much? I can get it at Wiwingti/Kult of Athena/ Swordn'armory for $100 less!" It costs more because I put a day and a half of labor into it. Some people don't really seem to get that. Albion needs to sell at a certain price to keep quality up, and has to pay American craftsmen to do it. Yet many posts suggest simply buying a VA blade or the like. Well, you're free to do that, but to somehow imply that Albion has to keep prices that low to stay competitive is absurd, at least to me. For their price, I'm probably not going to buy an Albion, at least not now. I wasn't planning to either. But I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch and complain with an entitled mentality that I am somehow owed and Albion blade for a lower price. By the way, hasn't anyone considered simply going to another outlet like www.viking-shield.com or www.kultofathena.com to get an Albion for the old price?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2010 0:44:58 GMT
I won't buy a new Albion because for me, I've had to draw the line and impose a limit on things. I make $49,000 a year, so it's not a problem for me to simply call Albion, give them a credit card number, and buy one. However, out of maturity and respect for my family, I have to look at the bigger picture. My wife would never buy a $1000 pair of shoes. My son would never get a $1000 Christmas gift. My daughter would never be given $1000 to spend at the mall on a whim. Nor can I allow myself that sort of excess for what equates to a very expensive boy toy. Since I have a Harley and a firearms collection as well, I have to walk a very thin line when investing as little out-of-pocket money as possible between three interests. I try to moderate my habits and I do fairly well with it. I keep my sword collection at an even 10 swords. If I want another one, I have to sell one to get it. My wife has agreed to this type of minimalist approach. If I do sell one, I tell her what I have sold, how much I got for it, and how much I intend to spend along with the sale price to get another one. When it comes to Albions, I have to sell one I already have to get one, and wanting to spend as little money as possible - I have to buy it used. This way, I typically only spend $200-$300 out of pocket. I have never ran into a money problem or had to sell swords to pay my rent/bills. Some others might heed my words there. In the last few weeks, I have seen a brand-new Svante sell for $2100 and a brand-new Regent sell for $800 because the collectors who purchased them ran into financial issues. Hell, I'd have money and marital problems if I spent $3800 on a single sword. Many of the used Albions that have crossed my palm have came from such circumstances. Collectors who cannot hang onto their investment because they have too much money invested in something that is non-essential. So for me, it's not a money issue. I make more than enough to buy a new Albion product. It's just that I could never justify an investment in a $1000 product that can be just as easily had for $500. That's just sound financial thinking...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2010 1:40:01 GMT
I make less then 49 grand a year and I can afford to get my hands on some albions if I REALLY wanted to...but like odingaard, it becomes a matter of multiple hobbies and the idea of value. Some of their swords are not worth it for me at the current price and some are for the NG. I consider all the museum lines worth the price as you really can't get something that recreates an exact sword from history. If they increase along the lines of their previous increases, I can get custom swords made for around the same price now. And despite what some people say, you can get pretty dang historical swords custom made. It just may require some research on your part .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2010 14:56:44 GMT
I've stayed out of this up to this point, but after reading Peter Johansson interview over at the arma site I thought he summed this all up very nicely.............
And................
My opinion on this matter, for what it's worth, is perfectly reflected in Mr Johansson's words. Now I've had quite a few swords pass through my hands over the years, Atrims and the current Valiant offerings included. While Atrims are good cutters, and Valiants are a great buy, their no Albions, not even close. They shouldn't be simply because their not supposed to be. What we're missing in the equation is the cost of all this research and development and the ever rising cost of living for craftsman in this country. It's not easy to be an artist in America right now. I should know because I am one. So maybe we all need to put this in perspective before we fire off comments about the cost of steel and the new manufacturing from China. Do you REALLY believe a Chinese sword will be nearly as close to an original as a well researched and documented one? I've handled both and the answer is a resounding no. Why should it? The lack of R&D and the very low labor costs are why they're so cheap in the first place. Also if you go to a custom smith and ask him to take several trips to a Museum to weigh, measure, and sketch multiple swords so he can come up with an original design that is a valid representation of say a XII that will certainly be reflected in the costs, as it should. And please don't give me that hand forged Vs CnC crap because I have yet to feel a difference in performance that's not just a product of my imagination.
So really we need to understand that in this case you pay more for valid reason, and less for a valid reason as well. If your ok with something that's held together by an allen bolt and was copied from a picture then that's fine, and the level of detail will be reflected in the cost. If your happy with an a-historcal sword that is a modern blade design but a great cutter, that's fine as well. Yet if you want a well documented, well made approximation of what a sword would feel and respond like had it been from the era it represents then that will be reflected in the costs as well, and again as it should. While I'll go a cheaper route for some swords that are not exactly i my area of interest for swords that are required to advance my understanding of the art I practice, Albion and Arms and Armor have my business, and money, hands down, Price increase or no.
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 4, 2010 16:57:27 GMT
mcapanelli... I get what your saying about Albion's vs other mass produced production swords. However, at the latest price incresses, what *I* am saying, is Albions are now as expensive on avarage or even MORE expensive the CUSTOM smith work such as that by Odin Blades or Fable Blades or Tinker or many others. At that price point, where I can get what amounts to one of the best production swords on the market... or I can get a custom sword made from the ground up to my specs by one person, who is every bit as dedicated to their craft as an artisin as the folks at Albion, but that sword costs as much or LESS then a sword made by a few people and to production specs... ...well, those customs become a LOT more attractive to me at that point. Those customs made by the hands of that one person to the specs I worked out with them... at the same price or often less then that of the new price of Albions... I would argue that is supporting craftsmen who have dedicated themselves to the craft far more and is going to produce MUCH more of an amazing and personal weapon for me. Put it another way... my collection includes Albions, Arms & Armour, Atrims, and all sorts of lower cost import production swords, as well as a few customs. I sell/trade swords ALL the time... but I am FAR more likely to hold on to my custom swords then my production ones, including my Albions, of which I have sold/traded several. My albions... I can just by another. My customs, there are none like them anywhere in the world, they are one of a kind. Those one of a kind swords now cost LESS in most cases then those production Albions... thats why I'll not be getting any new Albions at the higher prices.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2010 17:22:34 GMT
Sean, I think Albion's main selling point is their historical accuracy, which is something I don't think most custom sword makers can match. I think most of the devout Albion buyers are very insistent on this historical accuracy so going custom is not really an option for them. It's Albion or nothing for them. Hopefully their purchases will be enough to keep Albion going. Mike, I strongly disagree with Peter Johansson's statement about other swords being "horseshit". They may not have the historical research behind them that his swords do but I would hardly call an Atrim horseshit. A Toyota is not as good as a Rolls Royce but it can hardly be called semprini. That statement makes me think a little less of him (as if he cares!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2010 17:40:02 GMT
Whether this is a good idea for Albion comes entirely down to how well they have built their brand name. They probably really do have little choice. They have built a reputation for superior quality but the industry has advanced to a point where they can't easily distinguish themselves for quality alone any longer. Let's face it. No small 10 man shop is going to be able to compete for price versus a huge competitor with lower labor costs or against an aggressive solo swordsmith who has only himself to support. Their only hope is to compete through exclusivity. But will it work? Maybe.
During the recent economic slowdown, companies like Tiffany and Louis Vuitton continued to make money hand over fist. Logic would seem to dictate that luxury goods should take a hit first, but that isn't necessarily the case. Unlike Odin's wife, my wife will absolutely pay $800 for a pair of shoes or $1500 for a purse. I have tried to reason with her about the complete lunacy of this practice. But she would rather have a handbag that she can impress her friends with than a functionally identical bag that costs 100 times less!
I agree that Albions have reached a price point where custom swordsmiths can make a sword to your exact specifications that is of equal quality, including equal historic authenticity if that is what you desire. But it wont be an Albion. Albion just better hope that enough people care about their name to support paying more than the sword is otherwise worth.
For me, Albion swords were already marginally in this same category, so the price increase doesn't change my perspective one bit. I own three Albion swords and would like to pick up another mercenary. But I almost certainly wont buy it from Albion. I'll buy it from the CEO whose tastes change with the wind or the one whose company just went under.
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 4, 2010 17:41:39 GMT
I agree with you, Chris. Making a broad statement about cheaper swords being horseshit is insulting and caused the same feelings in me as you.
I think it would also be incorrect and insulting to people who value historical accuracy to dismiss Albion because of their price. I do appreciate the cost of making historically accurate swords in the US. The Albion guarantee should be taken into consideration as well. I cracked the grip of my Poitiers and Albion fixed it at no charge except my shipping it to them (they paid the return) and in a timely fashion.
On the flip side I love some of my cheaper swords. I especially enjoy my Windlass military sword/rapier.
To each their own.
There is at least one Albion I'll get sooner or later, you can't find a gladius like their Tiberius anywhere else, that thing is gorgeous.
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 4, 2010 18:01:55 GMT
Ric, others offer good customer services after the fact on their swords as well. For example, my Tinker ridding sword I got second hand, not from Tinker directly. It has a bit of play in the guard... and Tinker said I could ship it to him and he'd fix it and send it back to me. I find many custom smiths stand behind their work in this way.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2010 19:42:40 GMT
This thread just comes down to people sempriniing that stuff is getting more expensive, 3/4 couldn't afford an albion before the price increase, now 7/8 can't afford them. Life is tough, and expensive. It's your money do what you want with it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2010 20:08:22 GMT
It is all rather relative. Arms and Armor raised their prices all the way back in January without getting this sort of attention. Probably the person who noted that things are getting tighter and Albion is just as likely compensating for a somewhat compressed customer base is more on point. Albion quality? Up to a point, as JESarge has noted on several occasions. My Vivamus was delivered overweight. Then, while waiting for the sword I want I have to see them roll out the great, new, exciting Chirusker Seal gutter . Comedia Humana ;D
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Post by YlliwCir on Jul 4, 2010 20:55:21 GMT
Ric, others offer good customer services after the fact on their swords as well. For example, my Tinker ridding sword I got second hand, not from Tinker directly. It has a bit of play in the guard... and Tinker said I could ship it to him and he'd fix it and send it back to me. I find many custom smiths stand behind their work in this way. Of course, Sean. I was more comparing to say a Windlass. I think it comes down to what you want and how much you want to spend. Different tastes for different people and some have a variety of tastes. I like what I've seen of Albions and will get more if I have my way. Still, just for myself I can't justify the price difference between some of the Albions themselves. Some cost a lot more for prettier fittings. That isn't important to me but it may well be for some others. I like a variety of swords. I have everything from an Albion down to a sub $100 Musashi. I like them all for what they are but that's just me. I find it a bit condesending for someone to compare my more budget priced stuff to manure. Makes me think of them as stuffy but there goes my prejudice kicking in. All things considered it's a great time to be a sword enthusiast. Lots going on.
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