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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 1:33:08 GMT
Hi guys! Listen, I want some scale mail. I dont know where to get it and im going to be kinda picky as to design so i dont think any place will have what im looking for since i dont want to pay a small fortune for it. I thought maybe some of you people out there smarter than me (which probably means all of you), might have some idea as to how to make scale mail. What i mean by picky is this: 1) I want it battle - ready 2) i want the right hip to go lower than the left 3) i want it to be somewhat fitted ( i am a small guy and most chainmail and things are really really big on me) 4) I want it made of brass if possible
like i said, im sure some of you smarter than me know how to make or even possibly buy what im looking for. I figure that i could make a bunch of flat brass "scales" and put them on a leather hauberk but i dont know how cause i really want all the "scales" to be flat against my backing
thank you very much in advance. i really appreciate it, if it werent for being able to ask you guys id have a million half-finished projects
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 2:25:07 GMT
I've never found it to purchase. I used to know a website that would sell the scales to make good Lamellar, polar bear armoury, or something like that, but can't find it anymore. He does make lamells out of brass and bronze and other stuff if you're willing to pay for it. Your best bet is to craft it yourself. It isn't very difficult. Wait, I did find at Pennsic last year a guy who made waxed leather scale. About $400 for a set. I don't know his contact info, but if you go to Pennsic or know someone who is, then you can get his contact info that way. But, like I said, your best bet for Scale is to make it yourself. Tandy is a good source for the leather and rivets and tools for working the leather and final assembly. Stick with 5-8Oz leather. Under 5oz will be ripped apart first time it ever gets beat on. Over 8 will be too heavy and inflexible. For the scales themselves, 18 Gg should probably be the heaviest if you use steel. No idea on brass. Why brass? That's a pretty unusual metal for martial purposes. Bronze is more historically typical. Edit: found the lamellar guy: www.polarbearforge.com/lamellar.htmBut it's still "Some assembly required." This will just get you the pieces. And it's still Lamellar, not scale.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 3:16:19 GMT
(Edit: this came out longer than I intended... I actually made "scales" out alumnium cans, and I was intending to attatch them to maille for decorative purposes, though I have't done it yet. It was very easy with cutters and a paper hole punch, though if you want any real sort of armour you'd have to use thicker metal. Bassicaly what I did was measure and cut 1-inch wide strips, then I cut those into 1.5 inch long sections. After that I cut off the two "bottom" corners, and hole punched two holes at the top. I wove a couple rows of these onto some cardboard. I mostly did that just for fun, soda can material is too thin for any practical purpose. Although you could apply the same principles to thicker metal, just cut sections from strips, trim them to your desired shape, then punch holes in them. Just use some avaition snips or wiss snips for cutters, and a center punch/drill to make the holes. Scale armour can be made of thinner metal than other armour and still be functional, 20 gauge steel should be more than sufficent. Or you could look for scrap... an old box-fan could be cut up, for example. If you want brass I honestly think it would be easiest to use steel and find some sort of coating or paint you like, as brass is harder to find, and much more expensive. You could use a self-made leather vest as a backing, though that would also be relatively expensive. Something else you could try using would be Duck cloth/canvas, it's a LOT cheaper than leather, and is fairly strong, so long as you don't punch holes in it. (make an opening in the fabric with a awl or needle-like spike to weave the wire through.) Just make it into a custom sized "surcoat" of the desired length and shape, and then weave the scales on. You could also cut up 2 old belts and rivet/attatch it onto either side of the "surcoat" in order to secure it closed while in use. This is how I atached my alumnium "scales", there are many ways to do this. Though I think this is the simplest. Roman scale armour seems to have used a lot more than 2 holes, for example. I hope this has been of some help!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 7:03:45 GMT
If your looking for true scale mail try this site theringlord.com/ they sell all the supplies you'll need. Here's a few examples of scale mail from their gallery; I have been wanting to make some myself although I don't have the money or the time to do it, but man scale looks awsome...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 15:35:23 GMT
I want brass and not bronze simply because, while i like bronze a bit more than brass, brass is cheaper and much more accessible to me. I would settle for steel if i got some good stuff though. All right, i can probably buy the stuff i need all right. what type of wire or whatever you use to fasten the scales together would i want to use?? and how many scales would I need?? I dont even know how to figure that out. Im 5'11" and about 130#. And I want it to go about half-way down my thigh.
Again, thanks
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 15:35:51 GMT
Just to mention, the Ringlord scales posted above either require you to make a (chain) maille shirt, or to be able to manipulate rings on an existing one, in order to attatch the scales.
As for wire, you could try using 22 gauge galvanized wire, or some of the cheap 22 gauge wire from craft stores. I'd go with the former, though. (I used jute on my alumnium scales, which probably wouldn't be good for "combat" stuff)
To make something that would come to mid thigh, you would need a lot of scales. Obviously smaller scales would require more, though it'd be at least a few thousand scales. I'd recomend starting a smaller project first to practice, (Like scale bracer...) and see if a full sized garment is something you want to invest in.
Scale armour is similar to (chain) maille, in that it isn't hard to do, but is quite time consuming.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 15:39:41 GMT
That ringlord guy is lamellar rather than actual scale. The difference between the 2 being the backing. Scale is laced or riveted (usually riveted) to a backing and lamellar is not. And you really don't want those rings involved if you're going to be hitting the armour with anything (which is what I presume to be the plan due to the requirement that it be "battle-ready"). Duck-cloth, likewise won't hold up. It'll tear in a real hurry.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 15:50:53 GMT
I think duck cloth should be fine, so long as you don't use it in contact sparring. And I'm not sure Scale armour would be ideal for re-enactment combat to begin with. Obviously it's something that'd take a lot of dedication to make, and I personally wouldn't let people hit it. Especially with brass, the scales could bend when hit, unless you make them really small. I'm not trying to sound like a bugbear, though I'd hate for you put a lot of effort into something and have it get damaged. Also, Taran mentioned riveting, I hadn't though of that, though it could be done with roofing nails, a bolt cutter, and a hammer.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 16:19:16 GMT
Just one more point to add... "Bulldog" snips are great and handy for making relatively short cuts into metal, though they can get stuck if making long cuts.
If your metal source requires you to cut deep, long strips, try to look for the snips with the off-center "blades", as these are better suited for that. A cheap sabre-saw or jig-saw could be used as well. I have also used hedge shears to cut up a box fan, though the steel in the fan was quite thin. (around 0.5 mm~, maybe a little more.)
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Post by alanschiff on Jun 27, 2010 18:08:39 GMT
Historically, most scale armor was made from metal scales riveted or laced on canvas. You can get nice cotton canvas drop cloths at Lowes or Home Depot, and probably other hardware stores. They're relatively inexpensive, especially compared to buying thick fabric from a fabric store.
If you want combat-ready armor, I would suggest using 16 gauge metal, as 18 gauge is still pretty thin. As far as putting it together, you can either lace it or rivet it. My personal preference would be to rivet it, as that would hold up better. If you do lace it, though, you should use a flexible material. Modern lamellar, like what a lot of SCA fighters wear (at least in my area) is often laced with paracord. Another good option would be thin nylon rope, like for a clothesline, which can also be bought at a hardware store or Wal-Mart.
Most scale armor has overlapping scales, that way there are no gaps as you move. If you want it to remain flat, though, make sure to put the scales as close together as they can get. This will minimize any gaps due to movement.
To actually make the garment, you could either use a vest pattern or a wrap-around type. I don't know of any patterns off hand, but I'm sure a Google search will likely come up with something useful.
Hope that helps, Alan
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 19:15:28 GMT
I actually think 16 gauge might be a bit thick for scale, unless they're large scales. If the scales are small, they are harder to bend. Take a 1 inch by 1 inch square of 20 gauge steel and try to bend it... most people wouldn't be able to without pliars. Plus the scales should overlap, so any given spot should have between 2 and 4 layers of scale. If you use 16 gauge steel, the scales would be extremely strong, though probably a lot stronger than you need. Plus thicker metal is more difficult to cut and punch/drill.
Weight is also something to keep in mind, a thigh length garment of thick scales has the potential to be very heavy.
If you find some cheap brass, just keep in mind it'd need to be a bit thicker than steel for the same strength. I do think brass would look good, though!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 20:20:04 GMT
16 Gg is WAY too heavy for scale. 20 Gg is more typical of the scale/Lamellar kits in the SCA. 22Gg if you flute it. Remember, there will be a lot of overlap in a properly assembled scale kit. Fluting the scales is highly recommended. If you need to know what "fluting" is, refer to the Polar Bear Forge link above.
Canvas can work if you lace it. Not so much if you rivet it. The edges of the rivets will cut the canvas. If you go with the canvas, make sure to wear some extra padding underneath. You'll need it even if you don't do contact sparring. The laces will tear into you something fierce.
I am Ever. So. Slowly. constructing a scale kit myself. I originally attempted to go with leather scales for cost and ease of assembly reasons. That didn't work too well. I am now working with 20Gg mild steel fluted scales. Or will be once I get the fluting done.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 20:29:41 GMT
Well, as for abuse, I put a lot of stress on my stuff. I have plenty of tools and whatnot (contractor's son) and axcess to a lot of metal so...
I was thinking of possibly a leather backing and the scales riveted on or something in a way that they bend but arent actually even touching. The best picture of this i can find is wylfred from valkyrie profile. I know this is a video game and not real, but I think the idea is fairly simple and realistic and it seems sturdier than normal scale mail since the "scales" arent touching. theyre about a thirty-second of an inch from each other. My biggest question is how to fasten these scales to the leather backing. if it can be done and might be strong.
Also, I realize that this probably wouldnt even be scale mail, but I dont know what else it could be so I just call it that.
P.S. I dont need bulldog snips, I have saws and torches and big fancy machines that I dont know the names to to do that
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 22:44:04 GMT
You mean to leave gaps in between the scales so you can see the leather under them, eliminating the overlap completely? Or to keep the overlap but somehow maintain a little gap? The former eliminates the advantages of scale over a coat of plates completely, creating a weak COP (thinner metal, more gaps, etc). The latter I don't believe to be feasible. You Could figure out a way to craft in some spacers, I guess, but in that case, the spacers will still be bridging the gap, effectively causing the scales to be in contact. The whole idea of scale or lamellar is that you can take small pieces of thin or poor quality metal or lesser materials (horn, leather, wood) and craft an effective armour by means of overlapping the pieces. This is pretty much what you are going for with scale: This one is crafted from horn:
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2010 22:59:21 GMT
These guys are a Renne-Faire oriented group, so I don't know about contact sparring durability ("battle-ready"), great term, btw, whoever posted it (xerxes, thank you): www.eeldrytch.com/index.htmlThey have some leather scale armours. It doesn't say if they're hardened at all, and it looks like the scales are sewn rather than laced or riveted. And these guys sell components for a riveted lamellar. But since you say you already have all the gear needed to craft the armour, what you need to do is settle on a pattern of scale, teardrop, fish, half-moon, diamond, what-have-you, and start cutting them out. If you're doing a Scale armour versus a Lamellar, then design and craft your backing and as you go, by the hundred or so, rivet or lace your scales to it. If you;re doing a lamellar, then rivet or lace them together as you go. Scale builds from bottom up and lamellar from top down, usually. I don't know of a way to reverse scale, but lacing pattern determines just about everything for lamellar. For a sleeveless jerkin as backing, I found that a single double bend of leather (across the shoulders of the cow) was sufficient for my frame at 5'9" and 165Lbs. Don't know how you compare, but it should give you an idea how much leather you need. A suede sits softer than most other finishes and is just as tough as most (unlike upholstery leather, which sits soft and is not tough). I guess that's really about 4 sq yards of material, in fabric terms. But you'll have to figure out something for under your arms. Keep in mind that the weak point of scale is not the metal but the connection between the scales and the backing. Eventually, the rivets will either pop or pull out of the backing. Or the laces will break. Lamellar is the same, only without the backing. On durability, scale and lamellar, lamellar moreso for ease of assembly reasons, are very popular in the SCA. Especially amongst those who can't afford plate.
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Post by alanschiff on Jun 28, 2010 17:29:52 GMT
I should probably clarify my opinion on the metal thickness. IF you use a thinner (fabric) backing AND the scales don't overlap, 16 gauge, or possibly 18 gauge, would be my suggestion. Since you want a leather backing, it really depends on how thick the leather is. A thicker leather (6-9 oz) you could probably get away with 20 or 18 gauge. Remember that brass is softer than steel. For thinner leather, use a thicker gauge metal or wear a padded arming garment beneath.
For putting everything together, Taran has some good advice. I would add that copper or steel rivets would be less likely to pop than standard brass leather rivets.
Thanks, Alan
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2010 19:39:17 GMT
Well, then it's not scale (if the plates don't overlap). It's a coat of plates. In which case you Do need heavier plates.
Copper, copper, copper, copper, copper rivets. Use nothing else. Steel is difficult enough to work that I have set leather on fire trying to use those (when you pound the rivet, you are creating friction, which causes heat). The rest pop far too easily and most of the others have nasty bits that stick out and do bad things. Chicago Screws are awesome for holding pieces in place to see how they look and/or fit together, but cost Far too much and weigh even more. I have 20 of them for just that purpose.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2010 20:15:19 GMT
im pretty much wanting a leather cuirass with brass "scales"/plates all over it as an extra sort of layer. Picture a sleeveless leather vest of sorts with a bunch of metal plates all over it in the shape of diamons. This way it acts as a kind of cross between plate and leather, the strength of the plate with the flexibility of the leather. I called it scale mail because I dont know what else it would be called as I am only smart with blades, not armour. Yes, I dont want any overlap at all. I am sincerely sorry if I have wasted anyones time with my pointless questions (since I dont know what Im talking about) the only thing I am truly smart in is how to dispatch men in a variety of different ways with a variety of different weapons. Im new to this whole "put metal on them to protect them thing"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2010 0:01:47 GMT
Nope. No waste of time.
What youjust described is a Wisby Coat of Plates. Easy to make. Easy to find a pattern. You'll want 16 to 14 Gg steel for the plates. They typically go under the leather, leaving you a nice surface to tool and make pretty. Most of the construction advice still applies, though. Copper rivets (no smaller than No 9 rivets, use bigger if you can for this piece, though), between 5 and 8 oz leather. Just use bigger, thicker pieces of metal.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2010 20:00:09 GMT
Thank you very much. Do you think a double shoulder of leather will be enough? I want it to go to about my knees. My neighbor is a saddlemaker though and hes promised to help me with whatever leatherwork I need since I built his tooling shop and store. One more thing: where would I go to get that much brass or preferably, bronze? I live about 45 minutes sw of oklahoma city but I dopnt even know where to look online. and how much would that kind of bronze be? Again, thank you very much. For both your time and knowledge. I sort of feel bad. I mean, I ask you guys a lot of questions but I am fairly limited on answering them.
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