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Post by Lancelot Chan on Dec 30, 2007 12:50:56 GMT
I was invited as a guest competitor in a free style sparring competition hosted by a local sword forum. We agreed that I would only spar in the first division to give the newcomers more chance to win the game. It was the first time I sparred in a competition environment. I had been doing free sparring for very long time, in friendly practice mostly, and on a few occasions doing a duel. However, relying on judges to say what's a valid hit and what's not was a new experience to me. So I have to hit harder and become more obvious in my attacks so that the judges could detect my hits easier. There were six division bouts. They came up with "survival rate" to decide who would proceed to the next divison. I won the division I was in at 76% survival rate, the highest of the day. My opponent's arsenal included Chinese single handed jian, double handed jian, twin katana and a basket-hilt + buckler. It was not the easiest environment for a single longsword to survive. From the semi-final on to the final bout, it was 1 hit-kill mode where the winner was decided by a single valid hit (disabling / killing). The final fight lasted around 5 mins with both parties, 1 using a single handed Chinese Jian and the other wielding 2 Japanese katateuchi, taking many glancing slices and thrusts without a decisive hit. At last the one with twin swords hit the guy with jian at the head with a killing blow and won the prize. A student from Australia Stoccata school, Clinton, who studies German longsword under Andrew Brew also got to the semi final with a single longsword against all odds. After the division sparring, I asked my kendo friend to spar with me, who took up a chinese two handed jian instead of katana. Next, I joined up a queue where I could do some sparring with another esteemed kendoka (the same guy who was wielding twin katana in the division sparring) who was wielding a single katana this time. In these unofficial bouts I switched back to my normal mode because of the lack of need to let judges to acknowledge my hits.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2007 18:22:01 GMT
Awesome fighting!!! Lance, you're really looking good. The practice is paying off. You used your reach advantage well. You made good use of distance and timing. Your strikes are clean and identifiable as one of the master strikes. Very good follow up shots. There is one I liked a lot where you cut down with a diagonal cut and then swing back up with the back edge for the kill.
What are the dimensions of the sword you were using with the side rings? I don't see it on your site. Siderings are awesome. Very similar to my training-sword.
/index.cgi?board=euromedieval&action=display&thread=1197228631
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Post by rammstein on Dec 30, 2007 18:42:34 GMT
It may just be me, but I think a decent unterhau would have defeated the twin katana guy (who looked way to sloppy to have gotten most of those hits without sheer luck....I notice that none of his hits were decisive, and all of his hits would have been doubel kills at best).
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Dec 31, 2007 5:51:28 GMT
Thanks. It was 48" long, 36" blade, 3 lbs 10 oz with 3.5" balance from the guard. It was simulating my Tinker real sword.
[quote author=tsafa board=swordtraining thread=1199019056
post=1199038921]Awesome fighting!!! Lance, you're really looking good. The practice is paying off. You used your reach advantage well. You made good use of distance and timing. Your strikes are clean and identifiable as one of the master strikes. Very good follow up shots. There is one I liked a lot where you cut down with a diagonal cut and then swing back up with the back edge for the kill.
What are the dimensions of the sword you were using with the side rings? I don't see it on your site. Siderings are awesome. Very similar to my training-sword.
/index.cgi?board=euromedieval&action=display&thread=1197228631[/quote]
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Dec 31, 2007 5:52:46 GMT
Perhaps. It may just be me, but I think a decent unterhau would have defeated the twin katana guy (who looked way to sloppy to have gotten most of those hits without sheer luck....I notice that none of his hits were decisive, and all of his hits would have been doubel kills at best).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 6:10:07 GMT
NICE!!! I really liked how some people try to block your attacks but you still owned them.
Really cool videos -- I don't want to ever fight you hehe
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 10:21:04 GMT
Maybe it was just me but none of those guys looked very competent, the footwork was sloppy and so were the strikes. I have done some chinese swordsmanship and some japanese swordsmanship and now i am doing some western swordsmanship and I am not an expert but the guys you were fighting had no clue how to use their weapons of choice or their feet. The guy with the chinese broadswords, i am surprised he didn't break his wrist when he blocked your strike. Good video though and some excellent sword work from you The guy with the twin katanas should have stuck to a single one, in unarmoured combat I have found that a good kendoka can kill most other opponents with little difficulty as they move so damn fast. I spar against a friend of mine who is good at kendo and he kills me about %90 of the time cause he is so damn fast.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Dec 31, 2007 11:48:11 GMT
Yes, kendoka tends to be very fast indeed. However the decreased speed and reach when they wield a real sword/RSW may get their timing and distance sense off a bit. Still both of them are among the fast bunch, if not a bit exaggerated in action. Maybe it was just me but none of those guys looked very competent, the footwork was sloppy and so were the strikes. I have done some chinese swordsmanship and some japanese swordsmanship and now i am doing some western swordsmanship and I am not an expert but the guys you were fighting had no clue how to use their weapons of choice or their feet. The guy with the chinese broadswords, i am surprised he didn't break his wrist when he blocked your strike. Good video though and some excellent sword work from you The guy with the twin katanas should have stuck to a single one, in unarmoured combat I have found that a good kendoka can kill most other opponents with little difficulty as they move so damn fast. I spar against a friend of mine who is good at kendo and he kills me about %90 of the time cause he is so damn fast.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 12:15:06 GMT
My friend when he gets a real katana in his hands is even faster and more controlled then when he is using a shinai, he is breath takingly fast and he says he is slow compared to some of the higher level guys which is just insane.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 31, 2007 13:39:12 GMT
Well, the problem is, kendo is to japanese martial fighting as fencing is to western swordsmanship - they have their similarities but have been removed so far that they can only really be considered "sport." Not that that's bad.
However, from what I see, many users of the katana underestimate the power of the crossgaurd and are unprepared for fighting against a longsword. I don't remember if Lance performed any zwerchaus against parting strikes or oberhaus in the vid, but if he did, that should show you just how lethal and deadly crossgaurds can be. And no matter how long you train with a katana, you'll never be prepared for fighting a longsword unless you experience just what a crossgaurd can do.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 31, 2007 13:40:29 GMT
Maybe it was just me but none of those guys looked very competent, the footwork was sloppy and so were the strikes. I have done some chinese swordsmanship and some japanese swordsmanship and now i am doing some western swordsmanship and I am not an expert but the guys you were fighting had no clue how to use their weapons of choice or their feet. The guy with the chinese broadswords, i am surprised he didn't break his wrist when he blocked your strike. Good video though and some excellent sword work from you The guy with the twin katanas should have stuck to a single one, in unarmoured combat I have found that a good kendoka can kill most other opponents with little difficulty as they move so damn fast. I spar against a friend of mine who is good at kendo and he kills me about %90 of the time cause he is so damn fast. I totally agree with both parts. What weapons are you fighting against the kendoka?
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Dec 31, 2007 16:58:34 GMT
Yes, there were a few zwerchau against kendoka on the second video, 3:22, 3:26, 5:03. 100% successful rate Well, the problem is, kendo is to japanese martial fighting as fencing is to western swordsmanship - they have their similarities but have been removed so far that they can only really be considered "sport." Not that that's bad. However, from what I see, many users of the katana underestimate the power of the crossgaurd and are unprepared for fighting against a longsword. I don't remember if Lance performed any zwerchaus against parting strikes or oberhaus in the vid, but if he did, that should show you just how lethal and deadly crossgaurds can be. And no matter how long you train with a katana, you'll never be prepared for fighting a longsword unless you experience just what a crossgaurd can do.
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Post by rammstein on Dec 31, 2007 17:20:00 GMT
That is my absolute favorite strike out of any sword fighting I've ever seen - Zwerchau against oberhau/parting strike
It's a very crisp move that just shows how very important certain pieces of the sword are that most people overlook. And it's not a very difficult move at all.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 17:28:26 GMT
I find it slightly odd that you appreciate the technique, but abhor the practice of the martial arts.
Très incompréhensible, non?
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Post by rammstein on Dec 31, 2007 17:31:57 GMT
It's the utilization of certain areas of the sword. It literally shows you why quillions are so important - it's generally pretty hard to see without that.
I don't "abhor them." I'm in the undecided category. on one hand, I believe that killing is wrong, on the other, I think that if done CORRECTLY they can teach one about practical application of the sword, without taking pleasure or joy from killing. Bah, not the conversation again!
delete delete delete!!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 17:36:32 GMT
One should never practice a sword art to learn how to kill someone. If that's what you want, then you picked the wrong art, 'cause swords are not the the way to do it.
But let's not get into that debate again. D'accord?
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Post by rammstein on Dec 31, 2007 17:52:59 GMT
j'agree
(Is this speak like a frenchman day?)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 18:03:44 GMT
I'm just feeling very sophisticated at the moment. It'll pass.
Funny thing is, I only know enough French to wade through a written sentence or two. Try to speak to me in it, and I'll just stand there repeatedly asking "Quoi?" in a high-pitched annoying voice.
So back to the sparring.
Lance, do you find in your style of sparring, that those who try to perfect their technique are often at a disadvantage against those who fight instinctively?
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Dec 31, 2007 19:29:21 GMT
So back to the sparring. Lance, do you find in your style of sparring, that those who try to perfect their technique are often at a disadvantage against those who fight instinctively? This is a very interesting question, and I've experienced through both modes myself. What you mentioned was partially true. Techniques require time and effort to put into muscle memory and become instinct. During that stage, those who simply fought instinctively would usually have the upper hand against someone who was trying to pin down certain techniques. However, in my opinion it was necessary to get through the difficult stage if one aims to improve himself over time, for those who rely solely on their raw speed, cunning and aggressiveness, will soon find that their effectiveness would decrease along aging. Moreover, once the guy has pinned down the techniques and made them his own instinctive reaction, he can fight instinctively and he will perform a lot better than those who did not spend the time to learn. Personally, I had been spending the last couple years (perhaps even longer) learning the German system without a tutor. I've trained many students during the time as well and the most accomplished ones could defeat me whenever I tried to play by the book. They all knew the strikes I knew, as well as the counters to it. On the other hand, I may not know their personal secret strikes, and those were often made to take advantage of the known systems that they were learning. However, I insisted to play by the book for a very long time despite that, both as a living example of how to apply the techniques I taught correctly in free sparring, and to better understand the limits of the text book techniques. It was until the recent months do I try to let go every concern on the techniques and to spar instinctively. I discovered that I did hell a lot better when doing so. The sparring partners who relied on reading my mind were now defeated easily. Even the most accomplished students are having difficult time sparring me now. The outcome was that the techniques I spent time to perfect were all still there, but my opponents could no longer predict my strikes by observing my stances. I can go either by the book or be totally unexpected whenever needed. The master strikes could be launch from a stance not illustrated in period manual, or an unusual strike coming from an unlikely stance. In fact, sometimes even I couldn't tell what would my next strike be. I just let my body react with the proper choices that was installed to it during the difficult learning years. So I think if it was life and death combat, one has to fight with instinct in order to survive. However, who would have the better chance to come out of it alive? The one who spent more time to make the techniques become instinctive.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2007 20:27:11 GMT
Ahh, thank you. That's pretty much what I was thinking. In the beginning, those who just fight with instinct can beat those who follow the techniques. But as the techniques become instinct, they can be modified and become much more powerful for that.
I'm currently reading Guy Windsor's Swordsman's Companion, and he talks about the different kinds of students. Those who train to fight and win, those who train to learn new techniques, and those who train to perfect themselves.
The one who trains to win will usually win sparring matches in the beginning, but will be limited as to how far they can progress. They are the most common.
Those who train to learn new technique will not win matches at the beginning, but will eventually perfect their technique, and learn a vast repertoire of moves, and will become very good. These are rarer.
The ones who train for spirituality will practice one form for hours on end, striving to perfect themselves. They are predictable to begin with, because they do everything the same way perfectly, and cannot adapt to new moves. They to can eventually master many techniques, and become very proficient. These types are rarer still.
Of course, this is all a generalization. A true swordsman will have aspects of all thee, and is very rare indeed.
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