|
Post by randomnobody on May 24, 2010 17:45:52 GMT
I dunno, I would venture to say the appropriate configuration of tatami is a pretty widely-accepted media for testing cutting prowess. Unless you have access to some prisoners or cadavers or some such?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2010 17:52:19 GMT
There's always--except for the vegetarians among us--various cuts of meat.
BBQ time!
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 24, 2010 21:01:32 GMT
cutting meat from the butcher is pretty different than cutting living flesh as has been noted before by the few of us who have experience in these things (not me by the way).
tatami is fine, as are various bottles, jugs, and meats but in the end the only thing that is like cutting people is probably cutting . . . people. I'm not really interested in testing or seeing tests done on people so I'll be happy with tatami and other subsitutes thank you very much.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2010 22:26:11 GMT
I've never cut people but meat I have and it's not the same as mats or bottles - especially if you strap some leather or chain and with the target lightly moving side to side or spinning while it dangles. People will appreciate the cutting power of curved and thrusting power of straight right quick.
I'm not promoting that anyone should try this. But if you do, wear googles and gloves and steel-toe boots. For some reason, katana people cut into the shoe of the opposite foot. Hence I always recommend the 26" over 29", especially for short folks.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2010 1:30:58 GMT
I'm just a new guy, but I would think that straight vs. curved would almost be a matter of the "right tool, right job" so to speak, from the little bit of research I've done, curved blades and straight blades are used in diffrent ways, like has been pointed out by others already in this posting.
It is entirely likley that I'm wrong... but straight blades are used more like a "chop" and curved blades more like a "slice"
like I said I' really don't know, I may be talking out my tail end......
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2010 4:14:43 GMT
It is entirely likley that I'm wrong... but straight blades are used more like a "chop" and curved blades more like a "slice" like I said I' really don't know, I may be talking out my tail end...... Well, you are. But it was a nice try, a reasonable thought based on limited information, and I appreciate your self-aware attitude. But no. That's just.......no. Sorry. If you've ever cut with more than kind of sword it becomes abundantly clear that this is not the case with cut-oriented swords that are either straight or curved. You're not gonna get away with "chopping" in either case; if anything the curved blade is slightly more forgiving of a "chop" stroke. You are definitely on the right track with the "right tool, right job" statement, however. Blade shapes are different because of the different environments and tasks they are meant to meet and exist within. But those tasks aren't "chop" vs "slice" with regards to the curvature of swords.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2010 18:53:23 GMT
I shall forgive based on the pic thou shall post.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2010 22:10:33 GMT
I'm just a new guy, but I would think that straight vs. curved would almost be a matter of the "right tool, right job" so to speak, from the little bit of research I've done, curved blades and straight blades are used in diffrent ways, like has been pointed out by others already in this posting. It is entirely likley that I'm wrong... but straight blades are used more like a "chop" and curved blades more like a "slice" like I said I' really don't know, I may be talking out my tail end...... no apology necessary for being new, bro, we all have been there. lunaman knda summed up the concept of your question. but i would like to add that unfortunate circumstances of movie magic have beguiled the public into having a similar opinion regarding straight and curved blades. it is my humble opinion that with any sword style, or sword shape, it is truly about what you have been trained with and grown accustomed to. a katana is very popular curve, and jian a straight blade. most folks that i know use a katana to cut tatami, and prefer it. myself, if i cut mat with a katana my cut is minimal and the mat flops around. but when i cut mat with a jian... look out... chunk of mat flying. in my case it is because of straight being what i was trained with. i am getting better with katana, but long way to go. when my wife cuts with a jian, she does very poor, but grab a katana and sail. my $0.02
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2010 22:54:46 GMT
thanks for not flaming me for being wrong..
I must be missing something than, Is the "cut" with a straight blade still an "ellipse"?
That is what I'm getting from my looking... like i said I'm having to teach myself no one close enough to teach me.... so i may need to do some looking at western usage.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2010 22:59:56 GMT
No worries. If I understand your question, yes a full stroke with a western sword involves completing the ellipse in the entire range of motion but this is not so with snap cuts and the like. Start watching this guy's videos to get a sense of cutting with western blades: www.youtube.com/user/ShooterMikeSBG#p/a/u/2/OEjEfrFmSqQ***Here's a great Shooter Mike video on the basics. He's using an Albion Knight for the demonstrations.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2010 23:17:12 GMT
Thanks for the tip!! Lunaman
Ill have to watch more closly.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2010 23:22:44 GMT
I must be missing something than, Is the "cut" with a straight blade still an "ellipse"? Depends on what you're cutting. It's very possible to achieve an arc of a circle with a straight blade in a cut, definitely.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 26, 2010 0:41:21 GMT
thanks for not flaming me for being wrong.. I must be missing something than, Is the "cut" with a straight blade still an "ellipse"? That is what I'm getting from my looking... like i said I'm having to teach myself no one close enough to teach me.... so i may need to do some looking at western usage. lunaman strike well about the euro i assume, since i am not proficient with the euro styles. with a jian, much like a rapier, if i am going to slice an opponent, i will snap at the draw of the cut to achieve the force i need, mostly because my sword is lighter. as for the draw of the blade thru the cut, picture sliding it like carving a turkey. if you just do a simple chop type cut like you see in the movies, a lighter blade can take damage. also it takes a chance of getting stuck in bone if you hit an arm, or another part as such. while it is still possible even with jian to cleave an arm off, it is not necessary. a good slice across a tendon does sufficient to take that arm out of action. in taijiquan, the goal is not to expend your energy, but to make the opponent use up theirs. and to use their energy against them. i do well in cutting tatami mat, but i had never before attempted it until i joined SBG and saw the vids. i dont do it for the skills tests as spoke of... i cut stuff for shear fun.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 26, 2010 0:45:40 GMT
forgot to mention... watch shooter mike, when he cuts, his sword tip always recovers back to the front as quick as possible. if he was engaged in swordplay, he would be ready for the opponent's next move. :-)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2010 20:26:14 GMT
Anders, go talk to Jin-Shi, he can do some inexpensive customs that can give you exactly what you need for that test. What you describe is pretty much the evolution of the Chinese Dao from straight to curved. The main difference being that when the Chinese started adding curvature (Song Dynasty 960 CE - 1279 CE) they also increased the length of their swords' handles for added leverage. (Dao vs Zhan Ma Dao) However, since China already had a tradition of long single edged blades that were differentially hardened and straight since the Han Dynasty (206 BCE–220 CE) these might be good blades to test. Oh, I wasn't saying I'm actually planning to perform this experiement. I was just arguing a theoretical scenario. Besides, I don't think it would work with two swords that just happen to be similar, like two dao from different periods. They'd need to be literally identical in all aspects save curvature. Same weight, same geometry, same hilt furniture, etc. Excellent idea--regardless of what I (or anyone else says) empirical is always the best! "Nothing ruins a great hypothesis like an experiment." I love my Mythbusters, as you can tell. ;D The only caveat I'd include is to follow through like they did in the blade on blade tests and try to take the human factor out of the equation so that the testing doesn't reveal a subconscious bias. Some kind of spring-loaded device to deliver a standardized stroke. (The angle of the target can be adjusted to test it at different angles of impact--more right angle versus a more drawing cut--to identify stylistic advantages/disadvantages too.) I'd suggest going both ways - test it with an actual human, and then build some sort of cutting rig to eliminate the human factor, and finally compare he results from both sessions. It's true the person doing the cutting might be biased on some level, but swords were made to be used by people. Besides, subjective differances are also worth considering.
|
|
|
Post by mythosequidae on May 29, 2010 21:47:41 GMT
Curves can get you. Attachments:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 29, 2010 22:07:14 GMT
haha hey what does this mean?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2010 19:23:47 GMT
OK, so I am going to assume that the OP is correct, but if that is the case then why did katanas utilize a curved shape at all? Well This peaked my interest, as I have been shopping for both Euro and Asio swords recently, and I am trying to avoid a katana, but I found a straight one that I really like. I was having the same issue with decideing between straight and curved Euro swords. I have finally settled on a french saber with just the slightest curve, and a good pointed tip. Anyway, a few thoughts occurred to me whilst reading this thread. I believe in the OP's research and reasoning. That being said, I will address the above quote. It occurs to me that if a curved blade may offer a slight bit of extra leverage, as well as a slight bit of radial cutting power along with an altered POB, it may be more useful to a smaller, weaker swordsman. This may explain why the Japanese warriors were so keen on the curve; anyone of any stature and strength can use a katana.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2010 22:52:45 GMT
The first japanese swords were based off chinese/korean blades. They were straight-bladed and double-edged. Over a period of time, and due to changing conditions of warfare, the straight-bladed sword gained a curve, became single-edged, gained a ridge to the blade construction and were used from horseback, where long sweeping strokes were more useful than stabbing ones. There were straight-bladed single edged swords like the kiriha-zukuri style blades (people often mistake those for ninja swords) as well.
More changes to warfare conditions occurred, fighting became fiercer and more intense, and the uchigatana was developed around the Muromachi period - which are the katana and wakizashi blade forms.
I don't think that the Japanese clung to the curve because they felt that they were too weak to use a straight-bladed sword. It has more to do with the way the sword was being used. Uchigatana (katana and wakizashi) combine the action of drawing and striking in one motion. Try drawing a long (31" - 40") straight-bladed sword of any culture from its sheath and striking as fast as you can, then try drawing a katana from its saya using proper iai technique. You can much more easily draw and strike in one motion with a katana, but obviously if the katana is too long, drawing and striking becomes harder. I'm pretty sure that the curve is mostly there for the way it facilitates draw strokes, although you can't overlook that a curved blade is better for slicing/cutting than a straight blade.
As for the weight of a katana, I feel that a well-made katana is not as light as you might think it is. I mean, they won't be clunky swords, but you'd be surprised at their weight if you're imagining that they're lighter than a euro sword because of their blade length difference (typical katana is about 27 - 29" blade length, while euro hand-and-half and longswords can go from 31 - 40" blade length). In any case, the curve does indeed help facilitate slices and cuts, but I don't think it was *that* good that it would allow just anyone of any stature and strength to use a katana.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2010 18:40:37 GMT
You are absolutely right, I hadn't even considered Budo techniques or "The Art of Drawing the Sword." I actually studied this type of warfare for a short time. One drill had two swordsmen sitting on their heals and facing each other. And from here it went like a quick-draw face-off, each waited for the other to make the first move. Techniques were described that would interfere with your opponents drawing of his sword and give you a temporary advantage, like grappling and sword-fighting in one. I can see, in this type of scenario, why a curved blade would be ideal.
|
|