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Post by YlliwCir on May 23, 2010 0:18:48 GMT
That's a good point, Akotla1. For what it's worth when I first started cutting I cut better with kats (same with leaf blades), but as I used more euro types I did better with them. Maybe the curved blade gave me a bit of an extra "edge" being inexperienced?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2010 1:08:22 GMT
So, why have curved blades at all? I can think of two possibilities, fashion and perception. A sword is not just a weapon, after all- in most, perhaps all, historical societies it signified social placing and status, just as clothing did (and still does). So, swords are just as subject to the dictates of fashion and tradition as clothing. Perhaps a gracefully curved blade, more difficult to make and so more expensive, became desirable as an advertisement of the owner's social standing.
As for perception, I don't think the idea that curved blades cut better than straight is a new one. If the customer believes that a curved sword cuts better, then that is what the smiths will make.
Another possibility just struck me- are curved swords quicker to draw? I've not practiced quick-drawing with either straight or curved swords, so I don't know, but there are some here on the forum who have experience with both... What do y'all think?
Cheers
Marc E
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2010 1:30:35 GMT
I'll buy that given the particular physics that the OP utilized, there is no big difference in cutting performance between straight and curved blades. But as with many things, I'm not entirely convinced that there aren't other, perhaps unknown or un-accounted for variables in this mix.
Curved blades seem to have been favored by many, if not most, mounted combatants throughout history - for the cut. Those who count on their weapon to stay alive and prevail tend to have a pretty healthy preference for what works.
But enough of that. Lets get back to the really important stuff... More pictures of curvy - blades!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2010 1:57:09 GMT
Curved is indeed better on most occassions because the wielder can cut in at various angles while the curve accommodates it. The straight edge requires better placement.
My guess it's because swords weren't always used on tatami mats and water bottles. Try cutting through a pig with both types a few times and see for yourself. I had the luxury of doing this twice. Final: curved is better.
(Note: at the slaughter house - pigs already dead - don't do this on live pigs - not cool)
Do note, that many swords do have both curved and straight edge on them. I have one below this post.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2010 2:15:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2010 2:21:19 GMT
You mean my katana can't cut through an oldsmobile just because it's curved? (*Still the proud founding member of the "I hate Katana's Fan Club." *) Oldsmobile? Ha, child's play. As we all know a katana can cut cleanly through a tank like a hot knife through butter, don't you watch anime? anime (japanamation) sucks
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Dom T.
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Post by Dom T. on May 23, 2010 2:38:33 GMT
Hahaaaaah! Look at this one's maille! (S'not a curvy blade though...): (And her face looks really weird. Too much plastic surgery, maybe.) Um.. Valeria's sword is kinda curved, innit? Surprised none of y'all put up pictures of her. BWAHAHAHAHAH!
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 23, 2010 3:07:01 GMT
there's a lot of different ways of using a sword. curved swords are often used differntly and the curvature compliments the use they are designed for be it cutting from horse-back, quick-draw cutting, whatever it may be curved swords and straight swords are used differently. one doesn't cut better than another but one cuts better than the other with the methods used by certain schools of swordsmanship.
as for why katana became curved I don't really know but it could be because of the legend about how they became DH. a lot of the curvature of a katana happens when the blade is quenched and the edge and spine cool at different rates.
I would also like to note that katana did not really become more curved as their developement progressed. the amount of curvature varied due to region, time, fashion, etc. you could have very deeply curved katana made in the same year as very straight ones done by different smiths with different ideas on how they should be made. some katana were made from cut-down naginata, or nodachi or other longer swords and their curvature tended to be quite different. the point is: there's a lot of different reasons for curvature.
I have been told that a curved blade maintains edge alignment better (I'm not convinced yet but it might be true).
in the end, form follows function. if you cut better with a straight sword or with a curved sword it is not because that sword is better because of its shape but that the way you are using it is more conducive to cutting with its shape.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2010 4:42:27 GMT
Hey those girls are not sleeze and female members here should be proud for they are prized by us all.
Tom, I like to add that within the mechanics, a curved blade is easier on the cut after the cut has been made, dependant on target.
If you cut through a 200 pound pig hanging on a chain, hit some bones, you could follow through and if need be with a slight pull get the blade out in one stride. With a straight blade it's doable however not as well, as you have to pull more than follow through. So it's not in the cut per say, but rather the aftermath. This is extremely important in battles. There's a reason why cavalry tend to use curved.
To me, fighting 1v1 - straight blade is better (thrust more effective), while curved is better in other types of engagements.
PS - Thanks for the Valeria pics!
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Post by randomnobody on May 23, 2010 5:09:06 GMT
I wish I was a girl. Crap, that's right, I was staying out of this discussion this time... Oh well. Go curved blades! REcurved for the further win. ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2010 6:37:36 GMT
A lot of interesting questions. (I'll stay clear of the issue of pictures!) But as for the question of "why did curved blades even exist?" I'll preface the response with a reiteration of my position that there is NO significant difference in cutting between curved and straight blades per se--and I've cut a LOT over nearly three decades.
(In fact I just got both my copy of the CS 1796 and the much-maligned CS Grosse Messer from storage the other day. I run one way then the other depending on my aesthetics of the day--one day curved speaks to me, one day straight and symmetric. The sabre gave me some satisfied cutting, and I was feeling all "curvy"--then came ol' Grossy, and seriously, whatever one might say about its balance, is there actually anyone who thinks a curved blade exists that can go through more than this straight beast?)
Why did curved blades exist? (Might as well ask why straight ones did, of course.) Someone said it. Fashion and tradition.
Of course, much of that also has to do with being single-edged. Which in turn goes with making them. Not only is the katana and differential hardening much more conducive to a single edged blade, so is going for curvature in general. Going for symmetry in shaping and heat-treating a double-edged blade is more conducive to keeping it straight. In both cases, I'll defer to the makers on this forum, but this seems pretty clear.
And once a usable style of sword goes hand in hand with a cultural infrastructure for making that kind of sword, everything becomes self-reinforcing. It's a feedback system based on what works.
But NOT the ONLY way it COULD work.
This also speaks to one of the ongoing myths about swords, or arms in general, in a way similar to how people misinterpret evolutionary biology and adaptation. Nothing is "perfectly" adapted. Fur can keep you warm, so can feathers. Neither is necessarily better--and there are probably countless other possibilities that work but organisms have never tried simply because their existing genetics never put them in a position to do so.
Mammals have fur because it's been locked in by their genetic lineage, birds have feathers for the same reason. NATO uses the 5.56x45 and the Russian bloc the 7.62x39, and while gun aficionados go on and on with their "Just So Stories" about one being better than another, the truth is both survived even in the same context because, for all practical purposes, both are about as good.
Heck, as Tom pointed out, despite the idea that the Japanese sword has remained more consistent than European swords, actual Japanese swords have varied considerably in length and curvature over the centuries too. Heian and Kamakura blades are notably different. So are those within a time period from different makers' schools.
Fashion and tradition, in a constant tension with innovation.
That's human nature. Everybody looking for the "special edge," the botta segreta. Sometimes they find it, and warfare changes--forever, and drastically. Far more often than not, it's just a flailing around looking for some sense of control and security, "I have the better weapon, so I'll win," when it's nothing of the sort.
How straight or curved a sword is? It's nothing of the sort. Each one existed in its context because it not only worked, it was popular enough with a large enough group of both those who made it and used it to, for that time and place, form a critical mass. Nothing more profound than that.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2010 6:58:48 GMT
lemal:
+1
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2010 7:26:38 GMT
While I haven't cut with a curved blade yet, I do find that doing cuts in the air gives me a more consistent *wish* sound. For me, I think this is because some of the blade's mass rests behind the handle, which as you are swinging it, lends itself to a more effortless edge alignment.
But now that I've become proficient with European blades, I don't have that much of a problem with edge alignment any more.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2010 11:34:16 GMT
I love curves. Curves are cool.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2010 1:18:06 GMT
Me, I don't really have the brains for the physics involved in the whole curved vs straight question. I'm more of an impirical testing guy. So, if I wanted to figure this out, this is what I'd do; 1: Have a decent straight sword made. 2: Have an identical sword made, except this time add a curve. 3: Test cut both of them extensively and see if there's any notable difference. May be a bit pricy just or an experiement, but hey, at least it would settle it once and for all.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2010 10:13:28 GMT
Anders, go talk to Jin-Shi, he can do some inexpensive customs that can give you exactly what you need for that test. What you describe is pretty much the evolution of the Chinese Dao from straight to curved. The main difference being that when the Chinese started adding curvature (Song Dynasty 960 CE - 1279 CE) they also increased the length of their swords' handles for added leverage. (Dao vs Zhan Ma Dao) However, since China already had a tradition of long single edged blades that were differentially hardened and straight since the Han Dynasty (206 BCE–220 CE) these might be good blades to test.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2010 10:17:29 GMT
And a nice "curvy" blade pic.
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Dom T.
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Post by Dom T. on May 24, 2010 13:46:32 GMT
... What are those other things on her back? Yu-gi-oh cards?
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2010 14:00:53 GMT
Me, I don't really have the brains for the physics involved in the whole curved vs straight question. I'm more of an impirical testing guy. So, if I wanted to figure this out, this is what I'd do; 1: Have a decent straight sword made. 2: Have an identical sword made, except this time add a curve. 3: Test cut both of them extensively and see if there's any notable difference. May be a bit pricy just or an experiement, but hey, at least it would settle it once and for all. Excellent idea--regardless of what I (or anyone else says) empirical is always the best! "Nothing ruins a great hypothesis like an experiment." I love my Mythbusters, as you can tell. ;D The only caveat I'd include is to follow through like they did in the blade on blade tests and try to take the human factor out of the equation so that the testing doesn't reveal a subconscious bias. Some kind of spring-loaded device to deliver a standardized stroke. (The angle of the target can be adjusted to test it at different angles of impact--more right angle versus a more drawing cut--to identify stylistic advantages/disadvantages too.)
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2010 15:20:20 GMT
Yeah but you have to test on the right type of targets. Bottles and mats are not.
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