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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2007 2:35:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2007 2:35:42 GMT
hehhee, a lot time spent cruising antique sites and such . its all out there, we just rarely see it.
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Post by rammstein on May 4, 2007 2:37:28 GMT
Is that a Katana or a pike
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2007 2:42:49 GMT
that last one is an O-dachi,what a mother!!! heres some polearms (thanks to Carlo on SFI for a couple of these pics)
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Post by rammstein on May 4, 2007 3:03:31 GMT
The problem with japanese polearms (as I've pointed out, but it also applies to arrows) is tat they re tanged instead of socketed. This makes for an inherently weak base as rilling a hole in the wood is probably NOT the best way to hold a blade in place. That naginata looks awesome! I would want one if it was socketted though . Maybe I could get a custom one ?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2007 3:08:23 GMT
naginata and yari poles are usually done the same way as a tsuka, the wood is split, a long tang is inletted then the wood glued back together,often bound in rattan cane and a mekugi peg goes thru both pole and tang.The tangs are often as long or longer as the blade itself.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2007 6:21:09 GMT
Rammstein do you want me to tell you what the most boring thing on earth is Young men that don't give their response to the OFFICIAL SWORD QUIZ THREAD II, and make others wait !!
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on May 4, 2007 13:21:47 GMT
what is the deal with the black wrap and the black saya? almost everything is black, even though nihonto were so amazingly varied. rammstein has a point, why is everything (for the most part) so dull? quote] I think that cheap katana often are quite plain, but there are some pretty ones out there. Paul Chen's professional range, for example, is very pretty, and some of them arent lethally expensive. There's one called the 'Tsunami' or something like that which was nearly in our usual price bracket. Most are bank breakers, though.
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on May 4, 2007 13:22:56 GMT
Hmmm. My quote didnt work.
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Post by jw on May 4, 2007 18:08:14 GMT
I think your mistaking tools for decorations... Katanas were meant to preform and conform to a geometric ideal, which was for cutting your enemy down, later in more peaceful times of the decorations were added to an existing format. Simple=Effective Plus, think about how pragmatic and traditional the Japanese are, kinda makes sense that the Katana would be 'basic'. It is simple, effective, elegant and technologically advanced, how the hell can that be boring? Are you talking cheap katanas or REAL katanas? Any real hamon is FAR from boring and speaks to a knowledge of technology the Europeans never found... Look at the traditionally made Bokken from wood, no sandpaper, perfectly finished, wood picked out for a reason, the grain and seasoning of the wood matched to the form, consideration of construction technique and object function. Take violins for example, they just about all look the same but the Stradivarius rises above the crowd because every detail was considered down to the growing of the trees for generations to preserve the right density of grain to get 'that' sound. The standard katana is very much like this but what sets it apart from the European standards is the typical over the top perfectionist attitude of the Japanese craftsmen. Take automobiles for example, in my opinion Ferrari is the only manufacturer that can take Japan to task in terms of quality, care and precision in production. I think if you look at early Roman swords that were mass produced you will find, simplicity and elegance as well as the same boringness one may associate with katanas. Now take an ornate katana, for show and use and match it with a fancy rapier and you will find elegance, fanciness, some over the top work and none of the boring attributes that a standard sword holds. So yeah, some katanas are boring (but elegant is more appropriate) and so are some Eruo swords, but some are not and same with the European stuff, depends on what your comparing... Personally I am grateful for the difference in designs, if all swords were of one kind, THAT would be boring!
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2007 18:20:05 GMT
I think your mistaking tools for decorations... Katanas were meant to preform and conform to a geometric ideal, which was for cutting your enemy down, later in more peaceful times of the decorations were added to an existing format. i display my katana where people can see them; i don't display my needle-nose pliers and hacksaws (i don't have a garage). even if the katana is a tool, it spends a lot of time on a shelf looking pretty. i'm not questioning functionality, i'm questioning aesthetics. further, katana and tachi have always had intricate fixtures and fittings that didn't make their blades any less effective as tools. what i'm trying to get across is that historically, katana were not all the same and were not all black, all the time. i think manufacturers could produce a wider variety of katana if they tried. i just would like more variety at a price i can work with and wonder why most production katana are made of rammstein's letters.
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Post by jw on May 4, 2007 22:19:41 GMT
I agree and some people do display their tools in the same way you display your swords. Swords were created as tools and not as decorations, no hamon is ever exactly the same and to think the technology we see today was in progress in the 1400's is amazing. I seriously doubt hunter gatherers were fashioning knives and swords to decorate their huts... Elegance and craftsmanship is what the katana represents (and i'm not talking about cheap imitations) we are talking about REAL katanas here right? If not i'll start going off about all the broken, cheaply made, poorly crafted euro like swords out there and when i'm done boring will be a compliment. The thing here is that the originator of the original topic is comparing ONE type of Japanese sword with several types of other swords. Which katana is boring?? If one is going to over-generalize the same subjective irrationality could be applied to certain non-ornate european swords. Lacquered and sanded same is as boring as hand carved and stitched leather. The carvings on the blade are about as boring as those protective ornate baskets on rapiers... Which katana is boring?? Roman short swords are pretty boring if one isn't aware of the purpose and intent. They were meant to kill and overthrow... Are they fancy, no, are they swords, yes, are they boring, maybe if I was picking a fight...
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2007 22:21:22 GMT
Well I have to say, this thread is certainly NOT BORING.
I also have to tip my hat to you guys for being so civil. Any other forum and this topic would have been one big flaming war.
BTW, those pictures you guys posted of those mutant-katanas are really nice. I had never knew that the Japanese experimented to that degree.
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Post by rammstein on May 4, 2007 23:16:24 GMT
Considering that gladii varied pretty wildly (maintz and pompeii patterns were very different) I'd say that even the humble and stoic roman swords outrak the katana in variation.
And I hate to say it, but there are FAR more crappy katanas out there than european swords, simply because of the publics fascination with the katana means that there are more of them.
Another thing: While the japanese were certainly traditional, prgamatic actions were most certainly NOT their strong suit. The katana worked well, but the subtly involved in the tsuka and ito are very complicated and, in all practicallity, are next to worthless.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2007 23:43:20 GMT
i have to agree that most katanas that are sold today are kinda dull-ish. but i saw a pic of a nihonto in dark-green silk ito once (dont remember where) and it looked soo freaking cool! i cant really say i like the red or the orangey/yellowish ito colors, i prefer dark colors, but variation is always good
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2007 0:07:37 GMT
Gladii didn't actually vary that much... there are the mainz and the pompei. Katanas have differing degrees of sori, different types of kissaki(the two most popular are the shinogi zukuri and the shobu zukuri), then there was the variation in hada and hamon...
99% of the gladii I see are within an inch or two of length of each other, are perfectly straight, very broad, often with no taper until the point which gets really acute really fast. They all have fittings made from wood(though some have bone grips).
Though I agree that katanas are often not represented as varied as they were, there's still more variation than compared to gladii. Really, though, we're going back to that double standards thing. What we should be considering is:
Shinogi Zukuri katana vs. Type XII European sword. All of a sudden, when we compare those two very specific types to everything that's out there, they both seem boring.
What I object to(in a similar vein to the always black ito, black saya, white same complaint) is how almost all european reproduction swords are of flattened diamond cross section, when in fact, most should be of lenticular cross section.
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Post by rammstein on May 5, 2007 0:17:59 GMT
But compare two katanas from 1300 and 1500 and you'll find they were essentially the same. Whereas you'd have the the XIV and the XVIII in europe, both of which are completely different. So yes, comparing only one type of sword is boring, so you have to look at change. Stopping any development whatsoever isn't exciting. What is exciting is seeing the progressive improvements throughout the centuries. Katanas have varied very little.
The Gladii are quite different. The pompeii is paralelled edged whereas the maintz is wasp wasted. That shows quite a diversity to me. Katanas are essentially all curved, single edged, with no real flair throughout the centuries.
However, on the complete other side of the argument (as I've pointed out) japanese armor didn't change dramatically enough to warrant such a change and the japanese were brilliant warriors. They stuck with what worked. And there is no doubt the the katana is the epitome of effectiveness for what it was designed to do. Change isn't really important for anything but a historical point of view. We have the luxury of looking back and analyzing cultures and development.
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Post by rammstein on May 5, 2007 0:19:45 GMT
I agree with you profoundly on this statement. Hexagonal and lenticular cross-sections are very hard to find nowadays. Even my gen2 viking, which is meant to have a lenticular x-seciton, is flattened diamond. Not that it is bad, just not accurate.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2007 0:30:21 GMT
Rammstein 'Katanas are essentially all curved, single edged" Heres a pic of my Honoto, its away being remounted atm.Note it is straight and double edged
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2007 0:33:45 GMT
how can THAT hamon be boring? (note almost straight and double edged)
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