Avery
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"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
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Post by Avery on Mar 22, 2010 1:03:58 GMT
I've noticed there has been some discussion of late with issues involving different swords and some of the vendors responses.
First off I'd like to say that I'm all for showing issues when I get a sword and I think it's important to do so. To me I feel it's necessary to show our community the kind of problems a person might encounter when buying a sword and how an individual deals with them. Specifically how the vendors customer service is.
That being said, I also think it's incredibly important to keep the vendor/seller in the loop while doing so. I don't believe, in any way, that a person should stay silent when they receive a less than expected blade of any type but I also believe they have a responsibility to the seller to discuss these issues.
The thing that I'm seeing lately is someone posting about a problem (which I vehemently support) and before the seller gets a chance to respond others chime in who may or may not have valid opinions and serves to "muddy the waters" so to speak.
I'll give you a "for instance". I noticed that recently fellow reviewer Odingaard was requested to post some pics of the new BKS bastard sword, which he did. Now the issues he encountered was unknown to the maker 'till the maker saw the picture on the forum.
Understand that this is nothing, whatsoever against Odin here, and in fact my reasoning behind using this particular instance as an example is the fact that Odin is level headed and (I sincerely hope) he won't be insulted by it.
There are other examples that I'd rather not get into, the ones where a third party aggravates the issue.
My whole point behind this thread is to discuss the pros and cons of posting before contacting the seller, from both sides. I'd like to hear not only from the buyers but also the sellers. And to do it in a non-flamatory manner.
For me, when I got into swords, years ago, I dealt with folks like Windlass mostly. So getting issues fixed was a pain in the butt. My gut response was, and still is to some extent, just to talk about the problem amoungst friends and warn them without ever telling the seller. Within the past few weeks I've noticed what kind of problems that mindset can cause and have begun to re-examine my stance.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 1:10:05 GMT
I agrea with ya, the venders here, are our freinds, and not just some giant from India, but one dude did atempt to hide a mark, I still think it's a "M" for musashi But you know, things happen and it gets cleard up and we go on, the people who are real, stay here, thoes that arn, leave.........SanMarc.
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Post by Kilted Cossack on Mar 22, 2010 1:24:35 GMT
Avery, on Odingaard's behalf, I'm offended. I think you and him should fight.
Nah, just kidding! I entirely agree. It's appropriate to post here about problems (or potential problems) with a sword, although I think that doing so implies an obligation to post about the resolution as well. Let's say I ordered a Hanwei kat from Wiwingti, and there was something jacked up about it, and Marc cackled his evil French Canadian laugh and said, "I've already cashed the check, sucker!" Well, that's the kind of information people here ought to know.
(Like you did with Odingaard, I picked Marc because he sure seems like a stand up guy, and I hope he doesn't mind me using him as a "cardboard bad guy.")
If I buy a messed up Hanwei kat from Wiwingti and I post about it, I also think I ought to post, "Hey guys, and update: talked with Marc from Wiwingti, showed him the pics, he's sending me a fresh, personally inspected Hanwei kat in exchange. It's all good."
+1 to Avery for reminding us we're a classy bunch.
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Avery
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"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
Posts: 1,826
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Post by Avery on Mar 22, 2010 1:53:59 GMT
Avery, on Odingaard's behalf, I'm offended. I think you and him should fight. Nah, just kidding! I entirely agree. It's appropriate to post here about problems (or potential problems) with a sword, although I think that doing so implies an obligation to post about the resolution as well. Let's say I ordered a Hanwei kat from Wiwingti, and there was something jacked up about it, and Marc cackled his evil French Canadian laugh and said, "I've already cashed the check, sucker!" Well, that's the kind of information people here ought to know. (Like you did with Odingaard, I picked Marc because he sure seems like a stand up guy, and I hope he doesn't mind me using him as a "cardboard bad guy.") If I buy a messed up Hanwei kat from Wiwingti and I post about it, I also think I ought to post, "Hey guys, and update: talked with Marc from Wiwingti, showed him the pics, he's sending me a fresh, personally inspected Hanwei kat in exchange. It's all good." +1 to Avery for reminding us we're a classy bunch. A very very good point! If someone posts about a problem, an update is the mature thing to do. And I've seen it done here many times before. And 99.9% of the time the update is what you'd expect....." spoke to(insert sellers name here) and he fixed the issue in no time!" The majority of the sellers here put their personal reputation on the line and are more than happy to fix a problem if the buyer feels it's needed. If the buyer posts about a problem with a sword than I wholeheartedly agree they should follow up on the resolution. +1 back to you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 2:02:34 GMT
I know this isn't Ebay, but there is something that can be learned from the way Ebay deals with things. They always stress that if there is a problem, contact the seller. Most of the time they will fix the problem and apologize for your inconvenience ( and respectfully request a 5 star positive rating ). The 5 star ratings seem to be very important to Ebay sellers as it is the only way to guage their reputation as a seller. There are three steps involved. Contacting the seller, if that doesn't work contact Ebay to report the dispute, and finally giving the ebay seller a negative rating. The part we need to learn from is the part about contacting the vendor first. I have seen people receive a certain sword that has defects or faults when many others have received the same swords without problems. This is usually out of the vendor's hands, as they place orders which are shipped from the manufacturer or distribution center. Any vendor would like to see an issue like this resolved and would like to be the first to know about it. That way, when you do post a review it will be "I got a bum sword, I contacted Joe Vendor, he sent me a new one, I got an awesome sword, Joe vendor rocks." Now, if you buy a sword and it has faults that are obviously a problem with the way the sword is manufactured ( dull edge, short tang, rat-tail tang, etc ) that aren't something that is just a random defect or damage, that should be reported to us, the sword community ( IE: " Stay away from Cruddy Sword Company Limited, as I ordered one of their swords and it was made out of recycled cat food tins and cardboard " ), but again, if this sword came through a vendor, that vendor should be notified first that the particular sword is a POS so he can contact the manufacturer for a refund and/or hold off on selling anyone else this particular brand/model until it is investigated.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 22, 2010 2:04:03 GMT
I always figured the most appropriate sort of post at a time like this would read something like this:
"Hey guys, just picked up Sword X from Vendor Y, first off [positive remarks, if any], but unfortunately, [negative remarks]. [here is the important part] I have emailed/called/contacted Vendor Y and [am awaiting response/had this discussion: __________ ] and [will update/this is the resolution achieved, if any: ___________ ]. Updates will be posted as the matter progresses, [if applicable] but I thought I would share this with everyone as it happens."
Though it does seem we get a lot of "Hey guys, just got Sword X from Vendor Y, and I wonder, would "this" be considered a "defect" and should I contact them on the issue?" This is where things tend to go bad.
Whoops, Morpheus got in before I did, but it seems we are in agreement.
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Avery
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Manufacturer/Vendor
"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
Posts: 1,826
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Post by Avery on Mar 22, 2010 2:45:47 GMT
Though it does seem we get a lot of "Hey guys, just got Sword X from Vendor Y, and I wonder, would "this" be considered a "defect" and should I contact them on the issue?" This is where things tend to go bad. Random, You're seeing the same thing as I am. First I think we all should understand they're members here who are buying their first "real" sword and really don't know what to do about an issue. I can't fault most of those fellas for doing so. Morpheus made a good point about how ebay does things and maybe we could do the same or similar thing here. A "proper list of recourse" or something.. Sure would clear up a lot of those "what should I do" posts we're seeing. But I still think it's important to show issues that stem from production forges, because problems with QC do happen and people who're buying their first sword/axe/ warhammer/what have you can get an honest opinion on whether or not it would be acceptable by someone whose owned the same or similar model. Again, just one mans point of view here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 2:53:31 GMT
I did not raise a complaint with BKS because our business was finished over a month ago. I had no need to send the sword back for a refund or repair; so I did not have a need to contact them directly and distract their attention away from waiting customers.
The fact there were questions about the quality of the BKS product is a totally different discussion altogether. At this point, the conversation had turned to comparison of the quality of two swords - Lunaman's and my own. His BKS sword is finished to a higher standard than mine; and as a customer, it made me feel like I got the short end of the stick. Pictures were used to substantiate the argument, so that people would not think I was being overly critical.
As stated in my later posting, the sword itself is nice and solid. The level of finishing is lacking and should have never passed QC to begin with, but this was how the cookie crumbled. I accept my sword the way it is and my dealings with BKS are happily concluded.
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Post by septofclansinclair on Mar 22, 2010 3:10:35 GMT
Good points all. I actually helped one of the sword vendors who frequents this forum draft a "QC" page which basically stated "We understand that there will be some swords that slip through with unacceptable issues, please contact us before you spread it around the 'net and give us a chance to rectify the situation - that way you'll be able to report back to the community a full account of how we handled it, good or bad."
Random - I like your "template" there. We should post that somewhere on the main site for people who are finding QC issues with their swords.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 3:20:32 GMT
Personally, if I have a problem with a vendor, I will deal with the vendor and after things are concluded, THEN AND ONLY THEN will I report the results here, good or bad. Kinda like dealing with the guy in the next apartment personally first and calling the manager only when my attempts to resolve the problem fail.
That's the way I see it, anyway.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 22, 2010 3:24:51 GMT
That's a good way of doing it, too, but I'm of the type where I prefer "live feedback." That is, especially in cases of someone announcing their order of a specific piece, generating interest, promising a review, and then disappearing...it's very frustrating to those who were anticipating the news, ESPECIALLY when it comes back "Oh, yeah, about that...I got it, and it was a piece of crap. Check THIS out: [pictures, brief description of issues] Got in touch with the vendor and he basically told me to shove it up my [ ] and I haven't heard from them since." Granted, there are also times when we receive a months-later report on an issue that was resolved in a much more positive manner...but I still like live feedback. It's easier to gauge how long it took to get the matter resolved when you're following it as it goes down than when the other person has to estimate after it's all over.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 4:39:11 GMT
Though it does seem we get a lot of "Hey guys, just got Sword X from Vendor Y, and I wonder, would "this" be considered a "defect" and should I contact them on the issue?" This is where things tend to go bad. Agreed, these types of threads tend to go bad and bitter easily. My personnal opinion on that subject is that things start to go sour when multiple forumnites start to give their advices (which, by itself, is a very good thing) and then those forumnites differing opinions and egos start to clash. Those clashes don't always happen, but when they do, I believe it is because not everyone on this forum is looking for the same thing in his blades. Some people enjoy DSA swords because they are incredebly tough and these people won't mind the extra pound of metal. Others don't want that extra durability and will search for a lighter sword. And, in some cases, these two bunch of people will start bashing each other, debating, and trying to convince each other that these blades are useless crowbars or the most awesome indestructible thing ever .... In the end, the thread usually gets locked up and I think very few people changed their mind about which was the best sword ... So, when a defective sword pops up, these different people, looking for different things from their swords, may all agree about how unfortunate it is to see one of our fellow stuck with a lemon, but they may not agree on many many other things about this sword. I can remember a few threads that started like ''my Cheness Kaze as a rattling handguard'' who quickly turned into a fiery debate about how good or bad Cheness blades are (and please don't restart this debate in this thread ). Thats the point where seller bashing may start ... There's my two cents, dunno if I'm on the subject or a bit out of it .... What do you people think ?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 4:59:37 GMT
I believe after the fact, I've gained even more respect for Odin, and like how Matthew went about it.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 22, 2010 5:12:52 GMT
I must have missed the issue referred here, probably because I had no particular interest in the matter prior, during, or even now. I'm tempted to be curious, but I figure all has been resolved and there is little point delving into it now.
Sebastian, as usual, you raise some fine points. There are a lot of different opinions here, and it is undeniably important for one to be clear on what they mean by "good."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 5:16:11 GMT
Agreed. My good cup of tea might be piss for someone else ....
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Post by Matthew Stagmer on Mar 22, 2010 5:19:19 GMT
Most makers and dealers prefer to try and make everyone happy. We all know that for many reasons somethings slip through. In this case new methods and tired eyes lead to a QC issue. I hate that it happens but when you make 1000's of items a year it just happens.
Basing this sword, that is not my design or standard choice of construction, on quality of our products isn't quite fair. I will certainly improove the quality and pay better attention to the points that OG pointed out. Everyone wins with a little comunication.
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 22, 2010 5:23:44 GMT
Agreed. My good cup of tea might be piss for someone else .... See: beer thread
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 5:25:01 GMT
Why no love for my IPA ..... (sorry for the thread hijack there ....)
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Post by randomnobody on Mar 22, 2010 5:31:53 GMT
IPA reminds me of a bad vendor. Leaves a super bitter, nigh unbearable taste in my mouth, and makes me wonder why the hell I bothered giving it the benefit of the doubt and just trying it, despite knowing better. ...and can chop three bamboo with strike.
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Post by wiwingti on Mar 22, 2010 7:15:03 GMT
Personally, if I have a problem with a vendor, I will deal with the vendor and after things are concluded, THEN AND ONLY THEN will I report the results here, good or bad. Kinda like dealing with the guy in the next apartment personally first and calling the manager only when my attempts to resolve the problem fail. That's the way I see it, anyway. that is exactly what any dealer would like to, and i mean, once you have an answwer from the vendor, and the vendor say that everything will be set up, fixed, arrange call it what ever you want, he do not care if you comment it well or bad because you will say the truth but also say that he took care of the (ugly,hard,smooth,,Call it what ever you want) problem. i would say that and sure that everyone will agree that, we, dealers in here,are almost all, like to take care of the problems, when it happen no? so, this is why, sometimes, we are pissed when thread appear without us to know till everyone see the problem about(our delivery) like M stagamer said,, it can happen sometimes that we do not see it, tired,, stress ,,,you know. a mistake can arrive to us too, we are not perfect lol
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