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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 22, 2010 7:22:39 GMT
It has always been my policy that, if I receive a sword with which I have issues... I contact the vendor and work it out with them BEFORE I make a public post about it. I just think its only fair to give the vendor a chance to address the issues before doing possible damage to their reputation. Often a news agency or Newspaper (Do people still read those?) will run with a story... only to learn later that they were wrong. They print/issue a retraction... but its a couple second blurb or a sentence or two on page 22... and the percentage of people that see it are FAR less then the ones that saw/heard/read the story in the first place. Damage done, and not nearly undone by a retraction. Its the same thing with vendors. This is my problem with the 'live feedback' Random mentions... lots of people here like to jump the gun and say 'See, I knew (sword X) was total crap... just look at that!' and even if the issue gets dealt with later... during the meantime whole bunches of people are going back and forth about the crap sword... ...damage done, even if the vendor address the issue in an awesome way, damage is already done... and reputations are fragile things. Its human nature to remember negative things far more clearly then positive things. Also... sending an e-mail to the vendor then posting and saying 'I've contact the vendor and am awaiting a response' causes the same issues as above... I believe you should give the vendor a reasonable amount of time to address the issue. Only after I have been in contact with the vendor and either worked out a solution to the problem... or tried enough to concede that a solution will NOT be worked out... only THEN do I post about the sword and my experience with the vendor... thus everyone reading gets the WHOLE story, from START to FINISH. They don't have to make guesses or predictions or uninformed guesses or unfounded accusations... they have the whole story in front of them, crystal clear. I strongly believe this is the only right way to do it... the only way that is fair to myself, the vendor, and the public reading the information I'm giving them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 9:40:19 GMT
My whole point behind this thread is to discuss the pros and cons of posting before contacting the seller, from both sides. I'd like to hear not only from the buyers but also the sellers. And to do it in a non-flamatory manner. The issue seems complicated by the problems with QC in the industry common to low dollar swords and the inflammatory nature of the internet. I'm a stranger on these forums and during the day while I slept I had a few messages from a couple members of this forum who had similar questions about their recent purchases as my recent thread contained. I believe they are uneasy about posting their questions here openly. I've suggested they contact the vendor directly. I'm also going to suggest that my personal view is that they should feel fine in discussing their questions here openly with this community. No disrespect intended to Marc or anyone else. As far as I can tell Marc is a stand up fellow and he's obviously a valued member of this community. However, I admire the way in which Paul handled his recent QC problem. He stood behind his responsibility to his customer and for his product line without rancor despite a rather difficult review. With the majority of products it's considered common place for customers to discuss questions about their purchase before directly contacting the dealer. I think this is perfectly natural and should not be seen as a slight by the customer unless the discussion unfairly maligns them. I think it's important not to draw conclusions about the dealers business ethic or customer service without contacting them and making attempts to resolve outstanding issues. Also, I think it's important to relate the whole story truthfully as resolution occurs. I do not think asking questions about one of their products in a respectful manner on a forum dedicated to new customer awareness (as SBG appears to be for swords) is inappropriate. If the SBG community believes such questions should be held private until after the dealer is contacted, then this should be very clearly stated in the FAQ. Perhaps this will be the result of this thread. Although, personally I believe this would be somewhat disingenuous with the advertised nature of this forum.
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 22, 2010 9:49:26 GMT
If the SBG community believes such questions should be held private until after the dealer is contacted, then this should be very clearly stated in the FAQ. Perhaps this will be the result of this thread. Although, personally I believe this would be somewhat disingenuous with the advertised nature of this forum. Who knows WHAT the SBG community believes about when people should and should not discuss products with issues... thats sorta the point of Avery starting this thread, he wants to see what others think. Regardless of what the majority opinion may be... if there even is one... I HIGHLY doubt SBG would ever put forth a policy telling people when they could and could not talk about issues they may have with a sword. Thats for each person to decide on their own. I know how I feel about it... but I have no right to tell others that they must see it the same way I do. Nor would I ever even try. I certainly might try to explain why I think the way I do and maybe try and convince someone of the merit of my opinion, but I would never tell them they had to do it my way... and I would think (and hope) Paul and SBG would not either.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 9:55:33 GMT
If the SBG community believes such questions should be held private until after the dealer is contacted, then this should be very clearly stated in the FAQ. Perhaps this will be the result of this thread. Although, personally I believe this would be somewhat disingenuous with the advertised nature of this forum. Who knows WHAT the SBG community believes about when people should and should not discuss products with issues... thats sorta the point of Avery starting this thread, he wants to see what others think. Regardless of what the majority opinion may be... if there even is one... I HIGHLY doubt SBG would ever put forth a policy telling people when they could and could not talk about issues they may have with a sword. Thats for each person to decide on their own. I know how I feel about it... but I have no right to tell others that they must see it the same way I do. Nor would I ever even try. I certainly might try to explain why I think the way I do and maybe try and convince someone of the merit of my opinion, but I would never tell them they had to do it my way... and I would think (and hope) Paul and SBG would not either. Well obviously that's why i wrote "if" and why I replied to the thread I think that Paul's position is a good one if i understand it correctly. It's why i chose to join this community, why I bought a sword from him and why I have posted in answer to this thread. I don't believe that given the nature of this forum anyone should be censured for respectfully asking questions about a received product so long as they follow up after the fact as the problems are resolved by the dealer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 12:11:52 GMT
I think that there are two distinct issues here, firstly are occasions when someone new to sword receive a sword with a defect but is unsure whether that defect is something that warrants returning to the vendor or is so0mething that can be expected with a $100 sword. In which case I see no harm in having a discussion here about the issue, prior to the vendor being contacted.
The second issue is where there is a defect in a sword which does warrant returning to the vendor, and the sword owner knows this. In which case I think you have a duty to give the vendor a reasonable opportunity to rectify the problem. Then by all mean report what happened here, including an honest outline of the vendors response.
The sword buying community is to small to tarnish someone’s reputation unjustly .
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 22, 2010 12:29:52 GMT
I think that there are two distinct issues here, firstly are occasions when someone new to sword receive a sword with a defect but is unsure whether that defect is something that warrants returning to the vendor or is so0mething that can be expected with a $100 sword. In which case I see no harm in having a discussion here about the issue, prior to the vendor being contacted. The second issue is where there is a defect in a sword which does warrant returning to the vendor, and the sword owner knows this. In which case I think you have a duty to give the vendor a reasonable opportunity to rectify the problem. Then by all mean report what happened here, including an honest outline of the vendors response. The sword buying community is to small to tarnish someone’s reputation unjustly . Sounds like a good all around examination of the different perspectives to me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 13:30:28 GMT
There should be no problem with someone posting a question about whether or not a flaw, either real or perceived, warrants contacting a vendor or manufacturer about said flaw. The poster may find out that all of the models of that blade share the same trait, and figure next time to do a bit more research or ask questions ahead of time.
Now when posting a review, not only is the blade being reviewed, but the vendor is being reviewed by default. I think that with the communication that is available to us today that the minimal ammount of time it would take to contact a vendor would not delay the posting of a review overly long. The fact that the vendor was contacted should be posted in the review, the vendors response, and then the review updated as the situation is rectified. Or if the vendor is within 5 days or so shipping distance, hold off till the replacement arrives, and be honest about how it was handled.
There are bad apples out there, but the vendors who frequent this site are some of the friendliest guys out there, and are attentive to our wants and opinions. I believe that we as a community owe them the same consideration that they afford us.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 13:38:40 GMT
It's really just a common courtesy to gave any vendor or manufacturer a chance to address any issues one might have before airing the issue on an open forum. Say I buy a Windlass from WiWingti. (Just to pick two names out of a hat; a fictional situation) When it arrives, I notice that the item is poorly packed and that the pommel is crooked, and the scabbard is hanging out of the end of the box and is damaged. Now, clearly, WiWingti isn't responsible for the pommel being crooked, that would be on the manufacturer. However, the poor packaging would be. I need to contact them and let them know that the sword was both defective and damaged thru poor packaging. They immediately offer a new one, and I ship the old one back. My new one arrives and it is both a gem and packed to withstand the Gorillas of UPS.
My review would state that the sword was defective, and state why, and damaged in shipping, and state why. It would then state that the issue was addressed by the vendor, who made it all right by me, and that I was happy with the transaction. This shows my *complete* experience with this vendor and manufacturer. Of course, if the vendor told me to go pound sand, my review would reflect that too. Once we get enough complete experiences we can form an overall picture of how a particular vendor runs their business and how a particular manufacturer is watching the quality, design and construction of their product.
That's what this site is about.....right?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 13:46:22 GMT
^^^^^There it is^^^^^^
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 22, 2010 14:45:16 GMT
...Sebastian, as usual, you raise some fine points. There are a lot of different opinions here, and it is undeniably important for one to be clear on what they mean by "good." I think this may be the rub... and most common point of dissension. There are a significant number of us who will always disagree on what constitutes "good" in a sword, even within a given price range. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't haggle it out, right? Even though the discussion might become contentious on occasion...
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Mar 22, 2010 15:19:27 GMT
I think before you go public with a complaint/observation you should examine your motivation for the way you are considering going about it. If there is malice in your response, you should probably take a breath and rethink your position and reactions. If you hold out on a maker/vendor and then try to punish him with a public ambush then you are probably in the wrong. Even if the SOB deserves it, that is not the type of behavior that helps our community or nurtures us as individuals. If you try to remain positive in all your interactions then you are most assuredly guaranteed a greater chance for positive outcomes.
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Post by wiwingti on Mar 22, 2010 16:53:30 GMT
bad or good critism are normal and wanted by everyone here and dealers too , at least, me lol it is just that when bad critism are in a thread before , we , dealer , know what happened, we feel like if we didn't take care of a problem, and often, those threads, look like that.like we didn't take care of it, and we feel bad it is just normal to ask/tell/complain to the dealer before saying it in public, that way,we, at least know what happened and will be able to remediate to the problem and will be able to answer in the thread all calm down and not hangry lol Marc
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 19:49:22 GMT
...Sebastian, as usual, you raise some fine points. There are a lot of different opinions here, and it is undeniably important for one to be clear on what they mean by "good." I think this may be the rub... and most common point of dissension. There are a significant number of us who will always disagree on what constitutes "good" in a sword, even within a given price range. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't haggle it out, right? Even though the discussion might become contentious on occasion... I agree. Accepting and working through differences of opinion form the foundation of our society. I think the important consideration is the manner is in which it's done. I'm not a fan of rhetoric myself for serious discussion. I think it's great for entertainment value though. It's just my own opinion, but surely the dealers connected to this forum can stand a little transparency, even if some folks consider it out of order or the inappropriate trespass of a newb. So long as the discussion is respectful, honest and complete, it's more likely to do good than harm. If one person asks a question there are probably often more seeking the same answer who have not yet even registered here.
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Brett Whinnen
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Post by Brett Whinnen on Mar 22, 2010 21:01:55 GMT
This reminds me of something that used to be printed on a slip of paper and inserted into each box of projectiles I used to buy when reloading ammunition... "By all means tell your friends if you have issues with this product, but above all do not forget to tell me about them as I am the one that fixes the issues." As a consumer of products I look at vendors in this light; ultimately it is not the product or service that makes the vendor, but how they interact with you when you have a problem with their product or service. We all have our own opinions and thoughts on what is acceptable and what is not, what someone sees as a character flaw in something that makes it unique, others will see as a big issue, what it really comes down to is how the vendor treats you and your concerns more than the product itself. What concerns me more about people posting up innocent questions on whether something is a real fault or just a flaw is the witch hunting that seems to ensue...
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Post by sparky on Mar 22, 2010 21:02:08 GMT
A lot of good thoughts have been expressed here! ;D I can agree that talking to the vendor first is the (IMO) best option. I also can see how someone could want to put the question out there before contacting the vendor. There is a lot new guys ( me ;D) don't know and what I perceive as a possible issue may not be one at all. So asking here first, if your intent is to seek the knowledge that SBG offers and not trash the vendor, then I can understand doing just that. Man can I get any more middle of the road! ;DHope it makes sense.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 22:55:13 GMT
Exactly right Sparky.But as far as asking others opinion if something is wrong or not I cant help but think of an old country comedian my grandad listened to by the name of Jerry Clower.His stuff wasnt only funny but sort of life lessons.The short of it is he had a line in one of his stories where he was getting ready for a big date and asked his mother if she thought his shirt looked dirty.She replied, son, if youre in doubt,then its dirty,change it. If your not sure,always give the vendor the benefit of the doubt.Let them know the problems and your concerns and see what options they offer.If they dont,then take it from there.Of eight swords purchased from different vendors I have returned 5 to be replaced.If I am in doubt,I change it.But I go to the vendor first.
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Mar 23, 2010 21:54:39 GMT
Wow, this thread has had a little growth since the last time I checked in, cool. I think everyone has made good points, countered good points and have had a good overall conversation. We've heard from members who have high end collections, low end collections, Mods, manufactuers and vendors.
Daniel had an excellent idea on something Random said. Perhaps something could be stated somewhere on how to get the best resolution when having an issue with a sword that may be defective. Nothing like a rule or law or some sort; more like a reference for a new buyer who may be concerned about hurting feelings, jumping the gun, etc. But I highly doubt this will change things much. Think about it, whenever just about any thread about an issue one of the first questions more experienced members ask is
" have you asked the seller?"
And I don't see threads such as "what should I do about..." being banned or the OP being chastised by someone saying "hey moron, read this."
Folks will always want to get the advice of the more experienced buyers. And that is a very large part of what this site is about; helping each other find the best deal for their money that pleases them.
Okay, this meandering post is reaching its delta.
I given this matter a good deal of thought.....and thinking is very hard for me. I've come to agree alot with Shadowhowlers( and others) opinion.
Used to be, when you bought a sword years back it would often times be from a flea market, ren fair, catalouge, so on. If you got a lemon from the two you were just screwed; from a catalouge you had to go through the hassel of all the paperwork and contacting that was involved. So warning friends was about the only option. Nowadays thats unnecessary, for the most part.
And I think from now on, for me, I will be sure to contact the vendor with any issue of any purchase before mentioning it here (which as I look back, always seemed to be the case for me. hmphh). Don't get me wrong, this is just my opinion and others are free to do as they wish.
Anyway, I'm glad this thread has gone as well as it has. Not that I doubted that it would...
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