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Post by enkidu on Mar 19, 2010 18:04:06 GMT
People are just overeacting a bit here, and from both ends. Alright, Mr Bucket doesnt like those kats, he considers theyre not worth the price, maybe he didnt use the right tone to voice his opinions and maybe he has quite a tendency to do so. But in the end i think that this whole thing degenerated a bit due to the fact that Paul's reputation involved. But sincerly there's nothing here that can really harm his reputation, quite the contrary if this has proved anything its that he is a reliable guy to make business with.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2010 18:10:35 GMT
"Mr. know-it-all,"
Oh wow, really? Is that what this has come to? While you may not like what I have to say I've always addressed you by your name. Your comment at the end is childish. Its usually a good sign that someone feels like they are loosing an argument when they neglect to address the issues and simply start to call names.
See what you are doing now is moving the goal posts. My concern addresses the issue that the general quality and parts of these swords is extremely bad for $330. Yes this may very well be the cheapest custom sword on the market. That doesn't make it good. It doesnt matter what colour or combination of parts you throw together. The end result is a comparatively bad product. How long is that Ito going to hold up for with repeated cutting?
You know that the quality is poor but instead you try and argue an alternative reason. You yourself own a practical pro elite. It is available for $300 from wiwingti. Would you whole heartedly recommend a color choice of shoe lace ito over the quality present in one of those? A first time buyer is stood there and you have an SBG in your right hand and A Pro Elite in the other. On comparison which you you recommend? A quality sword or choice of spray paint on the saya, a wire brushed tsuba and some sempriniesque dragon menuki.
Have I ever handled one of these personally? Well its debatable but yes. I didn't buy it from SBG but from a vendor that placed a bulk order with what I expect is the same factory. I paid the equivalent of approximately $110. Same parts, same quality, same blade. It wasn't "custom" but it was also under a third of the price. I bought it as a blade to experiment etching and polishing on knowing it was going to be poor. Its debatable and I'm willing to accept if I'm wrong. As you know there are only so many forges and at the time were making swords for a glut of places.
I see the relevance of what swords I own but I also think I know what your getting at with the question. Are my criticisms more valid the more swords I own? If I was to fax across a copy of some NBTHK Hozon papers would this make my argument better? I get the angle your aiming at with these questions. Your just trying to formulate an attack on my stance that you would base on lack of knowledge or experience rather then refuting the bad quality.
I saw those two reviews when then were first posted and had the same opinion then. When looking at photos of these swords its very apparent that they are poor quality. In much the same way we can look at fossils and realize similarities between species we can find traits in photos that show the quality to be good or bad. When I say the habaki is poorly fitted/misaligned its because the photos show it to be. I call the seppa crap because the photos show the same "cog" like seppa that we have experienced to be crap. I call the shoe lace ito crap because from what I and other members have experienced is that type of ito being weak, loose and not holding its formation.
Why when this is said about Cheness swords do people not rush to defend their quality with such favor? That other mrchen(is that his name) sure could use a someone in his corner.
Cory: So far I've seen three reviews and have been unimpressed.
"wrong color saya, different fitting than ordered, oddly painted fittings"
plus bad quality, price and waiting a long time.....not to mention it could turn up like yours. Sounds GREAT.
Cory, do you think I have a reason for saying this? I don't work for a competitor and I have nothing to gain from this. I like swords. I have from when I was a child. Now I can afford to own them I do. I'm sure a lot of members can attest to how bad it is when they receive something defective or bad quality. I have no doubt that you received great customers service, I have never said otherwise and it was never in question. What I don't want to see is people being disappointed when they don't have to. I hope you mange to get your hands on something from a reputable forge so you can see first hand on what you've missed out on.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2010 18:56:18 GMT
As much as I hate to step into this I am going to have to defend mrfatbucket. Not what he is saying, but his right to say it.
Everyone please remember that this is a forum for us to share our thoughts and opinions. mrfatbucket has a strong opinion about this and he is expressing it. Others may not agree, but please respect his right to say it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2010 20:37:23 GMT
I respect Bucket right's to voice his opinion. I disrespect his tendency to express his opinion as unquestionnable truth and his tendency to become disrespectful in the process.
Bucket, I understand your concern about beeing attacked and bashed in your experience and knowledge as a sword collector, but understand that staying vague on this subject doesn't help. Beeing called ''Mr know it all'' isn't a pleasant experience, but the fact remains that you are stirring lots of negative debate and making many accusations against sword sellers that are well-viewed by many of us. That thing alone can easily rouse these forumnites to question the validity of your criticism.
Also, you do express yourself like you know everything that has to be known on the subject, but we still haven't got a clue about where you got that knowledge, if it exist at all. If one of the reviewers would drop by and say the same thing as you do, I would take his word seriously, because I could easily know which swords he has owned, reviewed, used, ect. In your case, I feel like I have to guess how much you really know. The only knowledge that I am certain that you have is your rhetorical abilities, which, IMHO, aren't used in a positive way.
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Post by wiwingti on Mar 19, 2010 22:02:30 GMT
I see both sides... *I* personaly would wait till I had contacted whoever I had bought the sword from and worked out the issues before posting my review. That way, when I do the review, I can tell the WHOLE story and people can respond to it... rather then have an on-going saga. However, I would never presume to tell others that they must or should do it the same way I would... but I would do it that way. it is exactly what i meant lol
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 19, 2010 22:23:01 GMT
Blegh. Ok... deep breath... everyone... in... out... relax. Before I begin this message I would like to suggest that, after this and maybe a couple replies, we all agree to go threw this thread and 'prune' in... we should delete all the pointless argumentative posts and, as Avery suggested, we can start a new thread in the Japanese Sword section about the SBG katana and continue the debate there, hopefully in a calmer more conductive fashion. I hope you'll all agree to do this with me... that way we can un-clutter Cory's review but continue the discussion. MrFatBucket: A couple points. You completely discount the customization of these swords as having no value... but that *IS* the value, and the whole point of the SBG entry line. I understand to *YOU* you would rather spend your money on a better overall sword and accept whatever the configuration of that sword may be... and thats fine... for YOU. Others, however, like having the option of picking their fittings and tsuba and saya and ito colors and so forth... and there is great value in having that option to them. If the customization options were not part of the package I would agree with you 100% and say the sword is overpriced for what it is... it should be closer to the 175-225 mark based solely on its construction if there were no options. However, OPTIONS are the whole point of the SBG sword in this case... the whole point! You make the mention of a Hanwei PPK vs an SBG Custom and asked which one would I (Well, Jim but I'll use myself in this example) recommend to a new sword buyer? Well... it depends. I would agree that the PPK is a more solid product overall and if the buyer was just looking for a quality blade and not put off by the look of the PPK, I would recommend that. However, if the buyer was more interested in the overall look of the sword and wanted a pink scabbard with pink ito and black same and a dragon tsuba... well the PPK won't do him a lot of good will it? To buy the PPK and then have it customized to fit THAT would cost him hundreds more. So in that case, I would recommend the SBG Custom. Its all about the right item for the right desire. You are only looking at it from YOUR perspective here... you are thinking 'Well crap, why the hell would I pay this for sword A when I can pay the same for sword B and get the better quality for my money?' because the custom options don't mean anything to you, they are of no interest to you. You HAVE to step outside your own perspective and opinion on this... and see that to some people... many people in fact... those options ARE important... they DO have value! They don't to you, but they do to many others. When you do that... when you factor in the value of the options, which was the WHOLE ENTIRE POINT of the SBG line in the FIRST PLACE then you will see that they are not overpriced anymore... they just focus on an aspect of the sword that doesn't matter as much to you. I hope you can see it from a perspective not your own... As to the questions about your experience and what swords you own... these are important, tho you may not think so. I have my collection posted in the members collection area... granted, its changed a lot... I'm always buying/selling/tradding... so its not up to date at the moment... but it gives an idea of the sort of blades I have experience with. I also have done several reviews for SBG, which can be seen by anyone who wants to see what swords I have reviewed and what I had to say about them. In addition... I have a profile in the VIP reviewers section that anyone can look at... it describes my perspective on collecting swords and gives information about me. Lastly... I often talk about what swords I have, have used, what I thought about them... I name them in many threads. The point of this is... when I offer an opinion... its VERY easy for anyone reading that opinion to poke around and learn a LOT about me and my experince... so they can quickly decide if my opinion should carry any weight with them or not. This is also the case with people like Marc Ridgeway, ShooterMike, Midori, Odingaard, Ric Willy... and so on and so on. Many not VIP reviewers have also posted collections and done reviews and often talk about their training, their collection... and offer information about their experience with swords. You have made no reviews (That I have seen, I may have missed em... correct me if I'm wrong) posted no info about your collection, do not mention what training you do or do not have, never talk specifics about what swords you own or have owned... ...basicly, your a ghost. I know nothing about you... so when you offer your opinion, I have little reason to give it much weight, since I know nothing about what experience you have to form that opinion. Thats, I think, a valid point no? Now... I'd be HAPPY to continue a conversation about the value of the SBG Katana line and its quality and whatnot... in another thread we start dedicated to that... but I hope everyone will agree to join me in removing this argument from this review thread, as its a mess, and start up fresh in another thread, where we can be more civil with one another. Any takers?
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Major, Cory J.~
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"Who can separate a man from his sword? One is worth nothing without the other." -Kalebipoeg
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Post by Major, Cory J.~ on Mar 19, 2010 22:58:01 GMT
I'm not too worried about the "thread jacking" that's going on here. I do find this to be VERY interesting reading, but some of it just has nothing really to do with the review and COULD be moved. But if it stays, I won't be bothered by it.
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Post by wiwingti on Mar 19, 2010 23:08:14 GMT
cory like we say in french (chte leve mon chapeau) mean,, i salute you for your patience here lol everything comming from everywhere and you still saying that it is fine oufffffff congrat man,, you have an iron patience lol
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2010 23:24:06 GMT
I agree with Marc, your attitude is positive and much appreciated, Cory. Have another karma from me.
Shadow, thanks a lot for this post, couldn't be any clearer and more respectful than that IMO. +1 From me when I recharge.
About the thread hijack, I suggest we start ASAP a thread in the japanese swords sub-forum to continue the debate or that we just drop it and leave it alone. In both case, I think we shouldn't delete our posts, even if many of them have their share of bashing and flaming, they can have their use.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 19, 2010 23:27:33 GMT
Sean, you nailed it. my clutter has been removed. too bad how this sword turned out but I think over all the product line is still good. Sean's post says what I wanted to say but was unable to find words for, therefor his post shall stand in for mine.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2010 10:28:52 GMT
Shadow: I see you point about being objective in the matter. Your right. I have no idea why anyone with an iota of experience with katana would want one of these.
Unfortunately I don't feel that customisation options excuse the poor quality. I also feel that due to the inherent nature of these swords being intrinsic to this web site has put them on a pedestal. People are being overtly defensive to protect a product that is very apparent that is poor. Would this product receive such a fanfare on other forums? No. People aren't being impartial. Members are being disingenuous if they promote the choice of a poorly cast tsuba and crap ito over a safer, quality product. The proverbial circle jerk is embarrassing. The very fact that some people feel that they cant publicly denounce something or state their opinion is bad. Its not a level playing field. Its being granted a favour that wouldn't be given to anyone other product if it arrived like this.
In a side by side comparison you guys know where these would place. They are are a good example of everything that is wrong with production katana. These swords are years behind the competition. Look a the photos in this very thread.
I've mentioned the swords I own many times in various threads. I didn't know that the size of a members collection was the crux of their argument. I get the point that you need to know the context of my knowledge and what I'm comparing these swords to. I have no allegiance to any site, brand or forum. I don't have a method to quantify my knowledge to you or anyone. When would it stop? Would you need photos? Do I need to have a JSA background before I'm noted?
Hijacking a thread? Isn't this a thread about the SBG custom?
No one is going budge on this and I don't think I can add anything else to the matter. For whatever reason people are blindly neglecting that no matter what combination of parts or how good the customer service is, that these swords are on par with the worst on the market.
Let the back slapping continue. +1 to everyone in the thread.
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admin
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Post by admin on Mar 20, 2010 13:17:08 GMT
What a thread this one has become..! But despite MrFatbuckets general rudeness, he raises some valid concerns - and this is a good thing! (though I REALLY don't like the WAY he raises it - tact and basic civility are wonderful things..) This particular sword was just awful - and as soon as I found out about it, I addressed it with Cory AND simulatenously have begun kicking some butt to avoid having the same issue come up again.. Yes, this was a QC slip up - I won't deny it! Its quite embarassing for me personally, but TRANSPARANCY is what SBG is all about!! Speaking of which, there is one thing that was raised that I wanted to talk about, and that is the question of pricing. - specifically the claim that it was the same thing as a $110 sword, and suggesting some obsene (and impossible) profit margins on the SBG custom Katana. MrFatbucket possibly may have bought a sword from a bulk shipment that was made by the same forge for $110 - but that doesn't mean that the SBG custom Katana is not fairly priced at $330 - because the reality is that its not comparing apples with apples... I mean, until this project it was pretty much the case for those who having a custom sword was important to them to buy direct from the forges in China, but of course if its not a bulk order and you just want ONE, the '$110 sword' would now suddenly cost $200 to $250 because it had to come via EMS from China AND it wasnt going to get a bulk order discount (look at most of these websites that sell them direct from forges and look at their sliding scale for price baed on quantity). The harsh reality is that when you are a one off customer to a forge that wants relatively big orders (well, more than 1 or 2 swords at a time anyway) - they don't worry too much about getting your specifications right! And if its not right - your pretty much on your own - getting them to worry about doing something to fix it can be like a long, drawn out war..! So you can gamble $200-$250+ away and hope for the best or you can basically buy from a 'syndicate' order through SBG and I'll take care of you if you have a problem! (plus, the chances of their being a mistake when the sword arrives with my agent is dramatically reduced, because the forge wants to make us happy! They get a larger quantity, regularily - so problems and mistakes become much, much rarer as we are, as a group order, considered to be an important customer than if you tried to just order one by yourself..) On the other side, the reality is that my ACTUAL wholesale cost for these swords is only a fraction lower than the retail price of $330 shipped... Just to give you a ballpark behind the scenes idea (as we don't get quantity discounts because every sword is 'fiddly' for the forge) the base price of each sword is probably more like $158 - but to this you need to add $20 for shipping to the customer, $13.90 for paypal fees, $25 for a few additional upgrades that the $110 sword doesn't have, $30 for someone to sort, repack and send them - and then variables like having to send some that fail QC back to the forge, customer service issues like replacing sayas that get scratched in transit, etc and general customer service related costs try to do something for an inconvenienced customer. And that is not to mention internatinonal currency fluctuations, and the huge amount of time that goes into it, and you can see it is not much money being made - especially if you add the costs of running the SBG website, both financial and time wise - and I don't know about you but $330 seems fair..! I've never really done the cold hard math of these, but in all honesty they probably just break even on each batch of these - and as I take each customers order personally, it actually extremely stressful at times..! (especially if they start running later than anticipated) But while this is going to sound like a cliche, I keep doing it because I get emails like this one: I received the sword this last Friday and I am very happy. I knew my imagination was rich, but seeing the living product of my customisation options confirmed this as much as 100 times more.Anyway, threads like this are what SBG is all about - but lets try and be tactful and keep it civil.. Not too much to ask I would think. Thanks, - Paul P.S. Yes I take the point about the comparison of the Practical Pro and the custom sword. Blade wise, I like both equally - I tested the custom blades hard before I decided to offer them, and they were recommended to me by someone whose opinion I respected. But the point is - yes, while the fittings are not as good quality as the pro - except in this rare case, they are still quite functional. But the main thing is, they (plus the length and style of the blade) is what the CUSTOMER designed..! And I really hear some amazing stories about peoples lives and why they chose the design they did in the process - and you don't get that when you sell a practical pro to someone, that much is for sure... Sorry for the rushed reply, hope it makes sense.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2010 20:08:52 GMT
Shadow: I see you point about being objective in the matter. Your right. I have no idea why anyone with an iota of experience with katana would want one of these. Unfortunately I don't feel that customisation options excuse the poor quality. I also feel that due to the inherent nature of these swords being intrinsic to this web site has put them on a pedestal. People are being overtly defensive to protect a product that is very apparent that is poor. Would this product receive such a fanfare on other forums? No. People aren't being impartial. Members are being disingenuous if they promote the choice of a poorly cast tsuba and crap ito over a safer, quality product. The proverbial circle jerk is embarrassing. The very fact that some people feel that they cant publicly denounce something or state their opinion is bad. Its not a level playing field. Its being granted a favour that wouldn't be given to anyone other product if it arrived like this. In a side by side comparison you guys know where these would place. They are are a good example of everything that is wrong with production katana. These swords are years behind the competition. Look a the photos in this very thread. I've mentioned the swords I own many times in various threads. I didn't know that the size of a members collection was the crux of their argument. I get the point that you need to know the context of my knowledge and what I'm comparing these swords to. I have no allegiance to any site, brand or forum. I don't have a method to quantify my knowledge to you or anyone. When would it stop? Would you need photos? Do I need to have a JSA background before I'm noted? Hijacking a thread? Isn't this a thread about the SBG custom? No one is going budge on this and I don't think I can add anything else to the matter. For whatever reason people are blindly neglecting that no matter what combination of parts or how good the customer service is, that these swords are on par with the worst on the market. Let the back slapping continue. +1 to everyone in the thread. Well, you'd better give me at least one karma or one pint of good ale for dealing with your posts . Since you don't mind the back slapping, I may add that I would pay to Paul and the others a drink, if I ever meet them face to face, for dealing with this kind of mess. For the record, I don't own a SBG custom and don't intend to buy one for the next 6 to 12 months. I don't have anything to gain from defending this product. I will let the public at large have the final word on this subject, they will be the ones to decide if this katana is worth their money or not. Considering that this katana is well past its second batch of orders and that new types of SBG customs are beeing made, I have no fear for this line of product's future. Finally, I think it is time we drop this debate and leave it alone, much has been said and said again and again, no need to keep it going, except to bruise some egos. Edit : Good to have your 2 cents and to have you around Mr. Southren
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2010 23:02:36 GMT
MrFatbucket does have valid points of concern, and I can see where he's coming from. It's difficult to keep your cool when it comes to something you feel strongly about, but in an environment such as this, it's important to do so so your points are not lost in your tone and manner. Paul, thank you for giving everyone a little peek into 'the other side'. Since I work in this environment, I have seen first hand the things you talk about and how difficult and maddeningly frustrating it all can be. I think it's good the end user get a little glimpse of what does go on so they know where the vendors stand too. Dealing with China is not easy at times and it can get so frustrating when the thing you've asked be changed comes in and is still incorrect. In the end, it'll either give us nerves of steel or drive us off the deep end, as I don't see working with the forges getting any easier in the foreseeable future. Good on you to fix things for Cory so promptly. +1. Can we call a truce now, people? Let's go back to talking about how good Cory's review was and how good it was of him to share this with us.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2010 0:11:36 GMT
Thanks for the responses.
I just don't feel that justifies how bad the sum of the parts is. They are demonstrably bad. Even if his sword arrived in "perfect" condition it would have still had all the hallmarks of a cheap sword. I don't think anyone should forgo quality or accept swords like this at any price. Yes they will be getting their choice of fittings but at the expense of quality. That cant be refuted so this excuse of it being a custom is used.
As others have said this has run its course.
But very quickly I have a question for midori. Is it purely a language barrier? Or do they just tend to do what they want and let you deal with the problems? It really is a fascinating subject and I would love to see photos of where/ how production of this scale works. I know its scarce to see though but I think there was a thread on it once with a few pictures of men spray painting saya.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2010 0:25:15 GMT
MrFatbucket: I shall PM you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2010 5:16:12 GMT
Enough, The problem here is that you do not want to accept that other people's opinions do not align with your own. You have gone from calling these swords "cheap", to "poor quality", to "crap", to "bad product", to "worst on the market". Apparently these swords are getting worse as we speak... Paul has come along and addressed the situation, and even thanked you for raising some points. Even after you stated that he is selling the "worst swords on the market", he still showed you the respect that you refuse to show others who have differing opinions. Part of having an opinion is hearing other peoples in turn, and you had better be prepared for others who would disagree with you. You have tiptoed around questions that have been asked of you, twisted words around to make myself & others appear in a bad light (then had the gall to accuse others of doing so), and have been incredibly rude to most everyone in this thread. Your opinions are always welcome, but if you cannot manage to express them politely then you are going to have problems my friend. ** THREAD LOCKED 24Hrs. **
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2010 21:30:57 GMT
I just want to say this: I have 10 SBG custom katanas. They all passed my own quality tests and I never had any bad experience with Paul or something else in this particular part. You must have had bad luck with this one and I'm sure Paul will do his best to make you happy. He's the best man to do bussiness with. And I know, sometimes you must wait a long time to receive your custom sword. But that's why it is a custom...
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