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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2010 22:51:25 GMT
I just wanted to throw this one out there. This has been mentioned in other theads, but I have had this problem. When I started doing backyard cutting, I used milk jugs at first. These are readily available and cut easily. Then one day I saw folks using 2 liter soda bottles and water bottles. I tried it with horrible results. I felt like I was in a batter's box. I could only manage a patial cut through one bottle. The rest were batted across the yard and this put a bend in my sword. That has been fixed. If I can cut fine slices with the milk jugs, is my blade not sharp enough for the bottles or do the easy milk jugs hide poor form? I have an irish hand and a half.
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Avery
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"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
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Post by Avery on Mar 15, 2010 23:07:35 GMT
Hard to say what you're doing wrong without seeing it, but have a look at this thread, it has a lot of good info that might help.
/index.cgi?board=cutting&action=display&thread=4307
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 15, 2010 23:08:17 GMT
I just wanted to throw this one out there. This has been mentioned in other theads, but I have had this problem. When I started doing backyard cutting, I used milk jugs at first. These are readily available and cut easily. Then one day I saw folks using 2 liter soda bottles and water bottles. I tried it with horrible results. I felt like I was in a batter's box. I could only manage a patial cut through one bottle. The rest were batted across the yard and this put a bend in my sword. That has been fixed. If I can cut fine slices with the milk jugs, is my blade not sharp enough for the bottles or do the easy milk jugs hide poor form? I have an irish hand and a half. I use both as target quite a bit... as well as 16oz and 24oz soda bottles. Different people have differnet impressions... but I'll give you mine. When you fill a container with water... the container takes on the waters mass, which is not inconsiderable. Now... with Milk jugs this is not so much of a problem... because the palstic skil on milk jugs tend to be thiner and more flimsy overall... so it cuts easier. Its not to hard to get multiple cuts of a single milk jug if your edge alignment is decent and your blade somewhat sharp. The 2 litter soda bottles have a more resilent plastic skin however... so if your edge alingment is off or your blade not sharp... you stand a good chance of swating the bottle as opposed to cutting it. When you don't cleanly cut it, the weight of the bottle is decent and the enrgey is transfered BACK into your sword... and you can absolutly give your sword a set on a bad cut into a 2 liter. I've done it myself. I think a lot of people see vids of us cutting bottles, even 2 liters, and think it should be easy... its not. Many of us have practice quite a bit... some (like RicWilly) have cut god knows how many bottles... and have got their edge alingment down pat. I find the 2 liter bottles to be one of the most dangerous targets I cut on a regular basis... and I always make sure my sword is decently sharp and am aware of the danger when I cut. Also... I won't cut 2 liter bottles with swords I don't think can take it... thin swords without a decent amoutn of mass I am very careful with around bottles that big. If your sword is sharp, of decent make and sturdy, with a solid non flimsy blade... and your edge alingment is good... you can cut 2 liters full of water pretty safely... but if not... then do be very careful, as damage to the sword is very possible.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2010 23:10:18 GMT
do the easy milk jugs hide poor form? Yep. Milk jugs are absurdly easy to cut--I've cut one with the blunt factory edge on a windlass and I am nowhere near what I would call 'skilled' at cutting. Even with my sharpest of swords 2-liters are a challenge to do well, and with the nice edge Gen 2 swords come with I don't think sharpness is the culprit here. Perhaps we'd have a better sense of the situation if you had a video or photos? Hard to diagnose from here.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2010 0:05:22 GMT
Thanks so much for the info.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 16, 2010 0:33:36 GMT
I agree with the above statements, especially Shadowhowler's. cutting plastic bottles is all about edge alignment. if your alignment is good you can cut water bottles with no problem with even the flimsiest of swords but flop your blade in sloppy-like and you'll have trouble. Milk jugs are a lot more forgiving and cut and tear easily while soda bottles are much tougher skinned. you know you have good edge alinment and a nice sharp sword when you can cut empty soda bottles (especially if you can get it to be a silent cut *bragging*). take a look at the SBG's Coolest Cuts gallery I have linked in my signature for a good list of great cutting, most of which is on bottles, some of them empty.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2010 0:46:52 GMT
Ive cut emptys with my musha but they always go flying the process yeah 2L are tuff especially with a horizontal cut
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 16, 2010 1:04:44 GMT
I would go so far as to say that if you bend a decent sword on a 2 liter bottle, it's guaranteed that your edge alignment was way off. Well... quite a bit off anyway. I find 2 liter bottles easier to cut than 12 oz bottles that are made of the same material, especially if your sword is at least sharp enough to barely tear paper in a slicing test. Marcus, what brand of sword are you using and how sharp is it? Will it slice paper at all? It shouldn't have to, but just wondering...
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 16, 2010 2:10:48 GMT
I find 2 liter bottles easier to cut than 12 oz bottles that are made of the same material, especially if your sword is at least sharp enough to barely tear paper in a slicing test. See... that falls under the 'different experinces then me' catagory. I've heard you mention this before Mike. I find it much easier to cut the smaller bottles then the 2 liters myself... and I have never damage a sword on a 16oz or smaller bottle, and can not imagen doing so. They are so much lighter they just don't have the mass to hurt my swords... they will go flying if I hit em wrong, but won't jack up a blade the way a bad hit on a 2 liter will.
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 16, 2010 2:33:07 GMT
I find 2 liter bottles easier to cut than 12 oz bottles that are made of the same material, especially if your sword is at least sharp enough to barely tear paper in a slicing test. See... that falls under the 'different experinces then me' catagory. I've heard you mention this before Mike. I find it much easier to cut the smaller bottles then the 2 liters myself... and I have never damage a sword on a 16oz or smaller bottle, and can not imagen doing so. They are so much lighter they just don't have the mass to hurt my swords... they will go flying if I hit em wrong, but won't jack up a blade the way a bad hit on a 2 liter will. No disagreement there. The bigger bottles are waaay more damaging if you do something that will damage your sword, since they weigh more and thus provide more mass that has to be moved. I just find them easier to cut since they don't have much more resistance, but they have more weight holding them immobile.
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 16, 2010 2:44:08 GMT
I just find them easier to cut since they don't have much more resistance, but they have more weight holding them immobile. Yeh... see... that makes sense when I think about it. The plastic is the same as the smaller bottles, but the heavier weight makes it less likely to go flying of the stand, offering a more stable target to cut... it seems like it SHOULD be easier... ...but for some reason, for me, its not. Maybe its total cutting surface, I dunno what it is, but I cut the smaller bottles easier and more consistently. I dunno why. Maybe I fear the 2 liter's since they jacked up one of my swords... and don't follow threw as well as I should... that could account for it.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 16, 2010 3:40:04 GMT
I would say that is an indication that you need to work on your edge alignment Sean.
I have the same experience with 2-liters as Mike: I find them to be easier than the smaller bottles. in adition to the extra weight holding it in place the thin plastic is not supported as well since it is stretched over a greater surface area. I think it might actually be thinner too but it is hard to say. I expect the difference is slight. I have always been a bit puzzled by Sean's assertion the 2 liters are harder.
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Post by YlliwCir on Mar 16, 2010 8:55:27 GMT
I would agree with Sean, two liters are harder to cut than their smaller brethern to me. I know it doesn't really seem like that should be the case but it's been my experience. Now those little twelve ounce gaterade bottles can be a semprini.
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Post by shadowhowler on Mar 16, 2010 9:54:53 GMT
I would say that is an indication that you need to work on your edge alignment Sean. But that dosn't quite make sense... if it was a problem of edge alingment, then 12 and 16oz bottles would be even harder to cut... because the swat so easy... but I cut smaller bottles great. I have a harder time getting clean cuts on the 2 liters then I do on the smaller ones. See... Ric Willy also finds the smaller bottles easier to cut as well... so its not an edge alingment issue... or he and I would not cut smaller bottles BETER then bigger ones... they would cut worse. I don't know what the deal is.
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 16, 2010 14:31:36 GMT
I would say that is an indication that you need to work on your edge alignment Sean. But that dosn't quite make sense... if it was a problem of edge alingment, then 12 and 16oz bottles would be even harder to cut... because the swat so easy... but I cut smaller bottles great. I have a harder time getting clean cuts on the 2 liters then I do on the smaller ones. See... Ric Willy also finds the smaller bottles easier to cut as well... so its not an edge alingment issue... or he and I would not cut smaller bottles BETER then bigger ones... they would cut worse. I don't know what the deal is. It is an alignment issue IMO. If you aren't cutting 2 liter bottles as easily as smaller ones it means you aren't maintaining edge alignment all the way through the cut.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2010 15:37:04 GMT
If you aren't cutting 2 liter bottles as easily as smaller ones it means you aren't maintaining edge alignment all the way through the cut. Sorry, Mike, but it is almost exactly the opposite. Once the skin of a 2-liter (or any bottle) is broken, the thing zips open with almost ridiculous ease. The cut angle won't be straight if edge alignment isn't maintained, but that's totally different. The problem with 2-liter bottles for some people is--surprise!--the water. Water has interesting properties in bulk--that's why a fall from a height where you reach terminal velocity is FAPP (faor all practical purposes) like hitting a solid. Smaller bottles give less of this resistance--less water of course. That allows the plastic to buckle slightly and be more forgiving of slight edge alignment errors. What they're less forgiving of is velocity; with less mass to resist, a harder but slower swing knocks them, though you'll notice even in most of those cases a partial cut happens. It's almost always only a 2-liter that can get batted and still be fully intact. The 2-liters (also with larger circumference gives a relatively flatter contact area) do require more precise edge alignment, but not all the way through the cut, it's at the exact moment of contact. (2-liters also are less forgiving of edge geometry, which is why weapons with thick cross-sections that will chop through flesh and bone just fine can bat 2-liters. I'll reiterate what I've said before here, getting back to the OP. 2-liters will virtually never give you a false positive--what cuts them would cut a real target. But it can give you false negatives, which brings up the question "is it me or is it the weapon, and is it a real problem with the weapon or not?" The only way to answer that is try on some bone-in meat.)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2010 16:34:52 GMT
As a couple examples of "swords" (or genuinely viable sword-like weapons, I won't argue terminology) that will often only bat bottles but are of a wieldy weight and balance and will positively tear through genuine meat-and-bone targets: This is a customization experiment I did some years back on an overweight, over-thick "Viking" sword. Could have been an old-style VA, though it was marked as Phillippines-made and w/ original brass guard and pommel. I removed the existing furniture and went all-wood on the hilt, then ground elongated cut-outs along the center of the blade to lighten it to about 2.5 lbs total. "Rude, crude and socially unacceptable." But it handles like a sword and hits like an axe--to the point that I tested it taking down a number of mesquite trees before gifting it to a friend. It also does the same basic amount and kind of damage to a deer haunch as a sword. But will only bat bottles. The other example is a "scythe sword" I did and shared with this forum a while back. Also bats bottles about half the time. Yet also will tear through flesh and bone just fine. (No surprise, as forward-curved blades seem to suffer from this problem more often in my experience.) So again, just a few caveats. If it works on 2-liters you're probably golden. If it doesn't, you have a few different possibilities and more research to do.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2010 17:26:08 GMT
Got to agree with Ric and shadow, I too feel bigger bottles are a lot harder to cut. Mike and Tom, your theories all make sense to me and I'm sure they're right for you, but I bat more bigger bottles than smaller ones for sure.
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Post by YlliwCir on Mar 16, 2010 18:57:39 GMT
It is an alignment issue IMO. If you aren't cutting 2 liter bottles as easily as smaller ones it means you aren't maintaining edge alignment all the way through the cut. I don't necessarily disagree. Could be easier for me to maintain edge alignment through smaller bottles as there is less distance for the blade to travel. That would make cutting 2 liters "harder", for some of us at least. ;D The problem with 2-liter bottles for some people is--surprise!--the water. Water has interesting properties in bulk--that's why a fall from a height where you reach terminal velocity is FAPP (faor all practical purposes) like hitting a solid. Agreed, anyone who has ever pooched a cut on a 2 liter knows they,ve hit something solid. It's almost always only a 2-liter that can get batted and still be fully intact. Gotta disagree there, I've batted lots of smaller bottles fully intact. When I pooch a 2 liter, there is almost always a cut or at least a decent dent in them.
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 16, 2010 19:00:33 GMT
Got to agree with Ric and shadow, I too feel bigger bottles are a lot harder to cut. Mike and Tom, your theories all make sense to me and I'm sure they're right for you, but I bat more bigger bottles than smaller ones for sure. ...Since, as lemal so clearly stated, bigger bottles are less forgiving of edge alignment problems and thick edge geometry. I hadn't considered edge geometry in the equation. But it certainly fits with my observations.
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