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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 1:11:27 GMT
Due to the misinformation that still seems rampant, I thought I would post this info perhaps where it could be stickied.
Here is fact:
the crystalline structure of hardened and tempered steel is called martensite. The crystalline structure of soft slow cooled steel is called pearlite. Even in the precise same cross section, properly tempered 100% martensite will always have a higher yield point than any percentage of pearlite and martensite.
By yield point, I mean the point at which bending or breaking occurs.
I would rather have a sword that neither bends nor breaks, this is best achieved only through properly tempered 100% martensite.
This [censored]ing bullsemprini LIE MYTH that all through hardened blades are brittle is just that. If you leave it as quenched or with barely a temper to speak of then yes, it will be brittle be it TH or DH. TH or DH not tempered enough can both be snapped right in half, or perhaps the DH will only snap across the hardened portion of the edge that is the hamon.
LET IT NOT BE DEBATED again, let's drop this NOOB argument and all move forward.
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Mar 9, 2010 1:15:01 GMT
Much applause in background........BRAVO........BRAVO..!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 1:20:25 GMT
Thank you, and whats up with your Avatar man! Its Freacky!!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 1:23:33 GMT
+1.
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Post by sicheah on Mar 9, 2010 1:24:02 GMT
Might also want to add the myth that only clayed differentially hardened Japanese blade have hamon. Heard quite a few people mentioning: "my blade is thoroughly hardened but has a hamon on it"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 1:32:23 GMT
Awwwwww What will all the noobs argue about now??? This only leaves ' Longsword vs Katana', 'Can a katana cut through a _____', 'Knight vs Samurai' and 'Should we see more pictures of Ricwilly in a dress'. They'll get bored! +1 Cheers Marc E
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Post by sicheah on Mar 9, 2010 1:35:36 GMT
Awwwwww What will all the noobs argue about now??? This only leaves ' Longsword vs Katana', 'Can a katana cut through a _____', 'Knight vs Samurai' and 'Should we see more pictures of Ricwilly in a dress'. They'll get bored! +1 Cheers Marc E We still have the Chinese Tamahagane debate
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 9, 2010 1:40:22 GMT
Might also want to add the myth that only clayed differentially hardened Japanese blade have hamon. Heard quite a few people mentioning: "my blade is thoroughly hardened but has a hamon on it" Actually, TH blades can have a hamon of sorts. This is caused by the fact that the edge of a katana cools much quicker than the body because of how much thinner it is; even without the help of clay. When polished/etched out, the odd TH blade will show a hamon and even a habuchi. When people say they have a TH blade with a hamon; they are either talking about this phenomenon or they are talking about the fake acid-etched hamon that comes on some TH blades. In the latter case, what you said is correct.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 1:41:31 GMT
'Should we see more pictures of Ricwilly in a dress' No
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Post by sicheah on Mar 9, 2010 1:46:03 GMT
Might also want to add the myth that only clayed differentially hardened Japanese blade have hamon. Heard quite a few people mentioning: "my blade is thoroughly hardened but has a hamon on it" Actually, TH blades can have a hamon of sorts. This is caused by the fact that the edge of a katana cools much quicker than the body because of how much thinner it is; even without the help of clay. When polished/etched out, the odd TH blade will show a hamon and even a habuchi. When people say they have a TH blade with a hamon; they are either talking about this phenomenon or they are talking about the fake acid-etched hamon that comes on some TH blades. In the latter case, what you said is correct. That is exactly what I had in mind. It started because I did observe some "ghost hamon" on my 1095 blade as well as the very recent complaints/debate here. Yeah I did forgot about the acid-etch hamon Thanks for reminding me that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 1:50:06 GMT
'Can a katana cut through a _____' the "_______" being "a planet while quick-drawing" of course...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 1:53:09 GMT
Actually, TH blades can have a hamon of sorts. This is caused by the fact that the edge of a katana cools much quicker than the body because of how much thinner it is; even without the help of clay. When polished/etched out, the odd TH blade will show a hamon and even a habuchi. When people say they have a TH blade with a hamon; they are either talking about this phenomenon or they are talking about the fake acid-etched hamon that comes on some TH blades. In the latter case, what you said is correct. If there is any resemblance of a hamon be it caused by cross section or clay (acid is fake either way), by technical definition it can not be considered TH.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 1:54:43 GMT
'Should we see more pictures of Ricwilly in a dress' No If he's more comfortable in a dress then we can all learn to deal with it like adults
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 9, 2010 2:03:38 GMT
Actually, TH blades can have a hamon of sorts. This is caused by the fact that the edge of a katana cools much quicker than the body because of how much thinner it is; even without the help of clay. When polished/etched out, the odd TH blade will show a hamon and even a habuchi. When people say they have a TH blade with a hamon; they are either talking about this phenomenon or they are talking about the fake acid-etched hamon that comes on some TH blades. In the latter case, what you said is correct. If there is any resemblance of a hamon be it caused by cross section or clay (acid is fake either way), by technical definition it can not be considered TH. Well I suppose I meant through-quenched. But then again, won't the spine/edge hardness always be different due to the cross-section; whether it shows a hamon or not? Where does one draw the line on whether to call it DH or not?
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Mar 9, 2010 2:29:20 GMT
This is one of the reasons that some of these "NOOB" questions keep getting revisited. Even the experts and other people in the know often can't completely agree on the language and definitions when trying to describe the science and art involved with the processes of creating swords. Some things just don't lend themselves well to compact, black and white, all encompassing explanations. They require patients from those that attempt to teach and time and experience from those that are trying to learn. And then you do it again for the next batch of questions asked again.
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 9, 2010 2:31:24 GMT
True dat.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 2:33:18 GMT
No, if full martensite is formed there should be no difference in hardness.
The line is strictly drawn by the numbers, if you were to get down your process with absolute control of temperature, and by testing samples of steel put through the prescribed heating and cooling recipe as layed down by the creators of the steel or the asm, then performing metallography on that sample to see if it shows full martensite or a mix of martensite and pearlite.
Casually the line is drawn where there is no naked eye visual clouding or misting, as in an albion and higher end swords.
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 9, 2010 2:40:30 GMT
Yep. Exactly. You can't use crappily made/heat treated swords as examples of metallurgical principles. Too many variables.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 2:52:37 GMT
This is one of the reasons that some of these "NOOB" questions keep getting revisited. Even the experts and other people in the know often can't completely agree on the language and definitions when trying to describe the science and art involved with the processes of creating swords. Some things just don't lend themselves well to compact, black and white, all encompassing explanations. Incorrect, the metallurgy can do just that, and the terms are set in stone also. I strive to use industry standard correct terms, with standard terms there is less confusion. I do not deny swordmaking is an art, and if everyone had the same level of understanding you could even better appreciate the beauty and magic that goes on in the creation process, it's like nothing else to feel the transformation of hot steel (crystalline form being austenite) to cold hard steel.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 3:07:39 GMT
Very informative and to-the-point thread, Sam. Thanks.
I've been following your journey (albeit casually) from when you posted more in the SFI forums and were newer at blacksmithing. Your knowledge and experience is valued and appreciated on my part.
(and on another note, what advice would you give to somebody thinking about getting into swordmaking? I'm currently getting some experience at both a local knife making company's forge and with an artist who makes a living making wrought iron fencing)
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