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Post by chrisosborne on Mar 9, 2010 3:31:17 GMT
Good posts Sam. I see we are both adherents to the Kevin Cashen school of thought on how to define these things. It makes it all far less subjective and really gets down to the cold hard facts(no pun intended). ;D
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Mar 9, 2010 3:33:21 GMT
This is one of the reasons that some of these "NOOB" questions keep getting revisited. Even the experts and other people in the know often can't completely agree on the language and definitions when trying to describe the science and art involved with the processes of creating swords. Some things just don't lend themselves well to compact, black and white, all encompassing explanations. Incorrect, the metallurgy can do just that, and the terms are set in stone also. I strive to use industry standard correct terms, with standard terms there is less confusion. I do not deny swordmaking is an art, and if everyone had the same level of understanding you could even better appreciate the beauty and magic that goes on in the creation process, it's like nothing else to feel the transformation of hot steel (crystalline form being austenite) to cold hard steel. I didn't say that it can't be done. I said that even experts and other people knowledgeable in the field often can't agree on how to describe the very same thing in the very same way. This is a founding purpose and challenge for science.......trying to explain and understand what is happening in the environment around us. This is also dependent on your frame of reference and how each individual perceives his environment. The weakness isn't necessarily in the science but in the choir your preaching to and the language. Things do not become conventional from arbitrary until the majority in a group (or the leaders) are in agreement and even then there are many degrees of understanding within the group and many ways to describe the same thing. It's not confusing Sam for you or others you talk with that have the same frame of reference. It's confusing for those that have a different or less focused frame of reference and without the mastery of the dedicated language pertaining to these processes.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 3:35:24 GMT
Pepperskull, thanks! It's been awhile since those early pieces hehe. I did a look back at some of my earliest posts, whew that was humbling Become proficient at basic hammer skills, basic heat treatment, then just study them, angles edges how they go together, then try and keep trying.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 3:47:02 GMT
Good posts Sam. I see we are both adherents to the Kevin Cashen school of thought on how to define these things. It makes it all far less subjective and really gets down to the cold hard facts(no pun intended). ;D You read me like a book Chris, I am a big fan of Kevin's no nonsense un-agenda-fueled method of sharing information. I didn't say that it can't be done. I said that even experts and other people knowledgeable in the field often can't agree on how to describe the very same thing in the very same way. This is a founding purpose and challenge for science.......trying to explain and understand what is happening in the environment around us. This is also dependent on your frame of reference and how each individual perceives his environment. The weakness isn't necessarily in the science but in the choir your preaching to and the language. Things do not become conventional from arbitrary until the majority in a group (or the leaders) are in agreement and even then there are many degrees of understanding within the group and many ways to describe the same thing. It's not confusing Sam for you or others you talk with that have the same frame of reference. It's confusing for those that have a different or less focused frame of reference and without the mastery of the dedicated language pertaining to these processes. well put. I forget sometimes that what can be a common understanding for me now 5 years ago was gibberish. I try and type like I would have liked to read before I understood all the -ites and stuff.was
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Post by chrisosborne on Mar 9, 2010 3:51:34 GMT
Just read your sig and spit out a piece graham cracker.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 4:00:36 GMT
ROFL I had the Ford sig you had but thought this one fit better here
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 4:00:52 GMT
Thanks, Sam! I've been working on basic camp knives, roach belly knives, etc etc. to get the hang of making convex edges and I have a very good knifemaking teacher. I'm looking to get some experience in hammer work, as well as general metalworking skills in order to manipulate the shape of metal exactly how i want it. My ultimate goal is to reproduce this, which is why I feel I needs lots and LOTS of practice with both the knifemaker and wrought iron fence artist I'm volunteering with: These Kris Sundang swords were once plentiful in sotheast asia around the Borneo, Brunei, and Sulu regions. Now there are few makers (If any), who make these, and generally any of these made within the last 40-30 years were of subpar quality and workmanship. I'd like to bring the artistry back into it, as well as the functionality of this almost extinct sword style. It will most likely involve me doing an apprenticeship in Bali, where they still make the Iron-nickel folded dagger versions (called Keris Tosanaji) that precedes the design of this sword (traditionally made of steel as opposed to Iron) Now, back onto the through-hardened VS Differentially hardened discussion: I have another question regarding this that you can probably answer, Sam. In terms of modern blademsithing, is there any advantages in having a differentially-hardened blade? It seems to me like technology today is such that we can manipulate the makeup of the steel so that we can retain a through hardened blade that springs back into place AND keeps a sharp edge. Do people just prefer to have the hamon for the traditional and/or aesthetic purposes?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 4:01:00 GMT
Just read your sig and spit out a piece graham cracker. Hahahahahahahahahahaha! ;D For a second I was wondering, "The heck is Chris O referencing?" and then I saw it and had the exact same reaction, but with water I was drinking. Lol.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 4:15:55 GMT
Thanks, Sam! I've been working on basic camp knives, roach belly knives, etc etc. to get the hang of making convex edges and I have a very good knifemaking teacher. I'm looking to get some experience in hammer work, as well as general metalworking skills in order to manipulate the shape of metal exactly how i want it. My ultimate goal is to reproduce this, which is why I feel I needs lots and LOTS of practice with both the knifemaker and wrought iron fence artist I'm volunteering with: These were once plentiful in sotheast asia around the Borneo, Brunei, and Sulu regions. Now there are few makers (If any), who make these, and generally they produce lower-quality versions for tourists. I'd like to bring the artistry back into it, as well as the functionality of this almost extinct blade You mean *sniff* you don't want to make katana? bless you! Good choice, I don't think I have ever seen, atleast in the Usa, any modern makers ever make one of those. who is your teacher? PM me if you do not want to mention it public. are you doing mainly stock removal? The combination of ironwork and knife making info will be good for that curvy blade, the geometries involved in it make me lightheaded ! Keep practicing, you get to a point where you no longer have to think about what to do, just how to do it.
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Mar 9, 2010 4:21:35 GMT
Good posts Sam. I see we are both adherents to the Kevin Cashen school of thought on how to define these things. It makes it all far less subjective and really gets down to the cold hard facts(no pun intended). ;D You read me like a book Chris, I am a big fan of Kevin's no nonsense un-agenda-fueled method of sharing information. I didn't say that it can't be done. I said that even experts and other people knowledgeable in the field often can't agree on how to describe the very same thing in the very same way. This is a founding purpose and challenge for science.......trying to explain and understand what is happening in the environment around us. This is also dependent on your frame of reference and how each individual perceives his environment. The weakness isn't necessarily in the science but in the choir your preaching to and the language. Things do not become conventional from arbitrary until the majority in a group (or the leaders) are in agreement and even then there are many degrees of understanding within the group and many ways to describe the same thing. It's not confusing Sam for you or others you talk with that have the same frame of reference. It's confusing for those that have a different or less focused frame of reference and without the mastery of the dedicated language pertaining to these processes. well put. I forget sometimes that what can be a common understanding for me now 5 years ago was gibberish. I try and type like I would have liked to read before I understood all the -ites and stuff.was As you know Sam, that's why it takes a special type of person to become a good teacher. It takes so much more than knowledge and understanding. It's the wisdom and patients that makes a teacher great. It's a shame that every time you clarify a point like you did with this, a new group of NOOBS fresh from the hype in the industry and on the net will arrive to ask the same old questions and deserve yet another round of answers. I am glad that there are people like you and Chris here to enlighten them and us. I also agree that this is an excellent thread.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 4:31:10 GMT
You mean *sniff* you don't want to make katana? bless you! Good choice, I don't think I have ever seen, atleast in the Usa, any modern makers ever make one of those. who is your teacher? PM me if you do not want to mention it public. are you doing mainly stock removal? The combination of ironwork and knife making info will be good for that curvy blade, the geometries involved in it make me lightheaded ! Keep practicing, you get to a point where you no longer have to think about what to do, just how to do it. Indeed. it's a damn shame that these blades have been reduced to such obscurity, but even in the region its native to, it was still pretty obscure in its heyday. I have seen and handled many antiques and most of them have an almsot appleseed-like convex edge. My knifemaking teacher has his own local business making camp and bushcraft knives and does a lot of stock removal on his smaller knives. On larger knives, he forges to shape. I'm very very inexperienced at this point (Only having started a couple of weeks ago to be honest), but I love the process already. It's great. My iron working teacher is an artist who makes Wrought Iron fencing and other wrought iron home furnishing for a living. I haven't started working with him yet but am looking foreward to it. This year, I probably won't get much experience in either, seeing as I'm going back to school and have a part time job, but I'm forcing myself into getting at least my foot in the doorway. By next year my schedule will be stable enough to have a more consistent amount of free time to dedicate to this hobby. Thanks for the support, Sam, and I look foreward to getting as much experience as I can!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 4:40:02 GMT
For sure! I'll try to be here to answer the seemingly endless waves of teh noobies, but I have been seeing quite a few people spreading the right info (or atleast on the right track).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 15:37:34 GMT
Sam,
Dude, seriously, that picture makes me think you are going to eat my soul.
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Post by YlliwCir on Mar 9, 2010 19:28:34 GMT
Sam, thanks for the thread. I found it very informative (the parts I understood). I agree it should be stickied.
I always enjoy the knight verses samurai disscussions.
I have more dress pictures and I like hearing virgins talk about sex.
Oh and, Sam, you never answered my question in the other thread. Are you naked in your avatar?
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Post by slav on Mar 9, 2010 19:44:34 GMT
Ric, Ric, Ric...talking about crossdressing and now coming on to Sam... Snap out of it, man! (or don't. whatever floats your boat) On that note, thread stickied.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 22:44:39 GMT
And to put the thread back on topic, Here's a question I posed earlier that hasn't been addressed yet. (Probably because I edited the post well after it was buried under more posts) Now, back onto the through-hardened VS Differentially hardened discussion: I have another question regarding this that you can probably answer, Sam. In terms of modern blademsithing, is there any advantages in having a differentially-hardened blade? It seems to me like technology today is such that we can manipulate the makeup of the steel so that we can retain a through-hardened blade that springs back into place AND keeps a sharp edge without sacrificing the optimum function of either. Do people just prefer to have the hamon for the traditional and/or aesthetic purposes?
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slav
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Post by slav on Mar 9, 2010 22:58:24 GMT
The answer is yes. Most people prefer a hamon for those precise reasons.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2010 23:31:55 GMT
Fair enough. Aesthetics or tradition driving the desire for a DH blade makes more sense I suppose. Especially since a well-tempered TH blade nowadays can retain a very good edge and will be less likely to take a set than a DH blade.
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Post by slav on Mar 10, 2010 0:14:41 GMT
Yeah. Some hardcore practitioners might prefer TH due to its cutting strength; but it is a bit of a paradox, because hardcore practitioners generally have good form and thus don't need an extra strong blade anyway.
It just comes down to 'different strokes for different folks', really.
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Post by sparky on Mar 10, 2010 22:19:40 GMT
It just comes down to 'different strokes for different folks', really. ^ Wisdom! ^ ;D
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