Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2010 23:16:58 GMT
I understand the basic differences, pros and cons,question is provided both are adequatley treated, tempered,wouldnt a 1060 DH have basically the same strength as a 1060 TH?
|
|
Brett Whinnen
Member
I know enough to know I still know nothing
Posts: 208
|
Post by Brett Whinnen on Jan 14, 2010 23:50:31 GMT
I'll let one of the metallurgists amongst us answer this technically (as I'm probably way way wrong) but just add my comments as follows: Depends The advantage of a DH is that you can get away with a higher HRC for the cutting edge without compromising the core of the blade with that hardness / brittleness etc. But of course it depends on the edge geometry, the use, the type of blade and so many other things. I also have noted on some sites that people talk about doing a through harden method and then have parts other than the edge drawndown to less hardness. Looking forward to some of the responses... Brett
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 2:39:52 GMT
I guess what im am getting at is providing the blade geomtries are perfect and the same and both tempering processes are done perfectly,which in your opinions would be better at withstanding abuse.A DH or TH blade.i understand the basic pros and cons of a DH blade however not so much with a TH blade.Can the TH take more abuse because or the consistent hardness?Would a TH blade be more prone to break due to a bad cut than to bend or be more forgiving?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 3:12:31 GMT
I guess what im am getting at is providing the blade geomtries are perfect and the same and both tempering processes are done perfectly,which in your opinions would be better at withstanding abuse.A DH or TH blade.i understand the basic pros and cons of a DH blade however not so much with a TH blade.Can the TH take more abuse because or the consistent hardness?Would a TH blade be more prone to break due to a bad cut than to bend or be more forgiving? I would think you need to define "abuse" and "done perfectly". Edge retention and resilience are two common characteristics to balance If by "done perfectly" you mean tuned to resilience then yes, a TH blade should be better because you would fine tune the entirety of the metal for resilience. Since DH means two hardness's, both can not be optimal to that characteristic. On the other hand if you are talking edge retention then the DH should come out ahead because a TH blade brought to optimal hardness for edge retention will be more brittle than on that had an optimal edge but softer spine to prevent brittleness. There is also the chance of twisting during a bend on a DH blade, something much less common on TH. There s also a chipping factor on harder steels but geometry can solve a lot of this problem. Bainite properties in L6 may turn this logic on it's ear as the Clark L6 blades can take tremendous abuse and continue to function. I am not sure there is a definitive answer but TH blades should generally be stronger than DH blades assuming a level playing field.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 3:17:03 GMT
good question. i'd like to piggy back it, if i may...
so, if the softer body and spine make the blade more flexy, doesn't that just put the edge at greater risk of stress fracturing by having to try and keep up with the bulk of the blade?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 4:06:36 GMT
It all gets broken down into the differences between toughness and hardness.
With an uber tough blade, you have less to worry about in the way of fragility. You do, however, sacrifice the range of what you can successfully cut through.
With a hard blade, your edge will cut into a larger range of materials with more ease...but you will sacrifice durability. What's easier to break: rubber or glass?
Provided both pieces are heat treated to an A++, both share the exact same geometry, and both are of the same basic material, then the through hardened blade SHOULD be able to withstand more stress and retain the same overall shape. The diff. hardened blade COULD take a set more easily, but it can cut through a larger variety of targets and retain it's sharpness for a longer period of time.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Jan 15, 2010 4:30:57 GMT
I just wish people would stop abusing their swords. Then none of this would be an issue.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 4:47:34 GMT
I just wish people would stop abusing their swords. Then none of this would be an issue. well I guess you can blame it on man... always trying to make stuff better and push stuff to the limits. God damn them ;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 4:50:14 GMT
I just wish people would stop abusing their swords. Then none of this would be an issue. Me too. Having a sword that can bend in half and not take a set is cool, but it kinda encourages the solidification of bad habits.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Jan 15, 2010 4:58:29 GMT
I just wish people would stop abusing their swords. Then none of this would be an issue. Me too. Having a sword that can bend in half and not take a set is cool, but it kinda encourages the solidification of bad habits. Exactly. If you're not confident enough to use a DH blade, for some reason being terrified of "what if it sets/breaks" then DON'T BLOODY WELL USE A SHARP SWORD, ESPECIALLY NOT FOR CUTTING. Buy a friggin' bokken and practice swinging it around until you figure it out, then try it with a nice blunt blade till you get better...then maybe seek instruction which means starting over. Failing that...don't cut things you shouldn't cut. There are reasons you shouldn't cut them. Granted, many of or members have received no formal training (myself included) and have risen to a grand level of "backyard cutting" (myself excluded) but really...if you can't cut properly without worrying about whether your sword will take damage...don't cut whatever it was you were going to cut. A through-hardened "beater" is NOT the best thing for a beginner...practice swings are. You know, cutting motions with nothing to be cut. You'll know when you've done it right, trust me. That said, there is no such thing as the infallible sword, be it DH or TH. I've messed up TH swords doing simple things (flex tests, nasty little monsters, those) and have put my Hanwei Practical Katana (Gen. 5), my first real sword, and DH, through some horrible things that resulted in the most severe damage of...sap stains. Never even nicked it. No bends, no twists...nothing. My Musashi Zetsurin I bent. Literally. I bent it...and it stuck. Pass me any blade, I'll either bend it beyond repair or beat it with no ill effect. I'm not even good at this.
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jan 15, 2010 6:47:40 GMT
some thoughts to add to the bunch:
DH swords get tempered too (unlike the old-school ways of Japan)
tempered Martinsite (the hard steel at the edge of the DH sword) is extremely tough and resilient. it is second only to bainite (steel in its springiest state)
when steel does fail softer steel is more likely to ding, dent, and bend while harder steel is more likely to chip and crack. spring steels are designed to "remember" the shape they are in when spring steel DOES take a set it is damn hard to remove that set and make the blade straight again.
TH swords tend to get little dings and flat spots and such in their edge DH swords tend to take sets
TH swords will need more edge work and sharpening while DH swords are more likely to need to be straightened.
if your form is good you can prevent nearly all bends and sets, but there is little to nothing you can do to prevent edge wear.
I prefer DH and I am biased in their favor.
anything and/or everything I have just typed could be wrong, these are how I understand things.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Jan 15, 2010 6:50:24 GMT
I pretty much agree with Tom's statements, overall. Straightening a bent "spring steel" sword is a bi--er--task.
I've yet to bend a DH sword, though...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 8:45:52 GMT
Whoa... A simple question and out comes high strung preaching, capital letters, and assumptions. Why must so much be read from a simple one sentence inquiry? It sure wouldn't make me feel welcome or even apt to learn by asking.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Jan 15, 2010 8:48:59 GMT
Well...frankly...the subject is already tired just from this week alone.
Then we have the actual words used.
Add to that the overall vagueness of the circumstances and, well, what do you expect?
Some of us get tired of answering the same question. This should be a stickied FAQ by now. Though even if it were...we'd still get new threads on it every week...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 13:15:35 GMT
Abuse=basic cutting in the hands of a beginner with no training.Done perfectly=with no imperfections or flaws.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 14:42:42 GMT
Well first off Random,I didnt mean to offend,ask the same old tired question,if there is such a thing,or set you off on a tirade.And yes im sure i could have worded my question better and with more info, however then it just would have taken you longer to read the same tired question.Agreed, without a doubt practice makes perfect or close to it, I own bokken,and bamboo swords and have practiced swinging them for about 30 yrs now. I understand there is no magic sword steel that will not take damage, the abuse I spoke of was abuse due to use by an untrained beginner, not trying to cut a brick or what have you.As far as being "terrified "of bending or breaking a sword, to the contrary, i bent mine just the other day, trying to make a cut I obviously wasnt ready for.I had a good laugh over it said oh well, straightened the blade and went on.Durability may not be an issue to one of your skills,I have no cutting skills as i am new to this ,therefore durability is an issue for me.Am i looking for a sword that will cut anything no matter the conditions ,of course not, i know it doesnt exist.I simply would like to better understand why one is better than the other.A sword that can bend in half is cool,but I see the advantage not necessarily as cool but that it would be more forgiving to a beginners mistakes.Its not about how much can I abuse my sword ,what can i cut with it,but rather what will be more forgiving to my lack of skill.What is it about seeking knowledge that tends to tick some people off?Isnt that the purpose of most forums.Oogway your right.......a simple question.So Random i apologize if this response seems a bit agitated,,,it is.If we cant share our thoughts ,opinions, and questions, then whats the point of this forum.And to those who are tired of answering the same tired questions over and over, i say with all respect, simply dont take the time to respond.A simple question, hmmm.Thanks for the comments and info guys, all vey helpful, even yours Random.And again I do apologize if i offended anyone else by asking a tired question.By the way i just found the thread for DH blade vs TH blade,many questions answered, thanks guys.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Jan 15, 2010 18:04:38 GMT
Hey, just sayin', we have a search button for a reason. There are no questions that button tires of, and it needs far less details. In fact...the more vague you are, the more it tells you.
Just sayin'...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 18:22:28 GMT
Not to be a nitpicker, Random, it can also be said that if the subject matter bores, annoys or otherwises bothers you, you don't have to read it. And certainly you don't have to answer it.
Other people are happy to answer questions from new members, let them do it.
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Jan 15, 2010 18:29:35 GMT
Whoops, thought this was a public forum. I'll give it back to John now.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2010 18:33:35 GMT
edited: Original post deleted: I have no desire to derail this thread.
|
|