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Post by YlliwCir on Jan 3, 2010 3:36:13 GMT
People find what they seek.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2010 3:50:18 GMT
People find what they seek. God, I hope so. It would be awesome to find Halle Berry laying on my bed when I got home. Back on topic: The cruciform hilt was merely referred to as such by Victorian scholars for reference purposes when referring to straight crossguards on edged weapons. This was not really a term used in earlier historical periods to refer to a weapon style. There is no doubt (as it is shown in period artwork) of the sword and the cross having interchangable religious meanings; but the cross also existed on examples of weaponry of non-Christian cultures predating Christianity.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2010 4:02:25 GMT
People find what they seek. God, I hope so. It would be awesome to find Halle Berry laying on my bed when I got home. I think the full saying is that people find what they seek, for the right price... @sanmark: wasn't Thor's hammer too short, I think Loki had something to do with that... disguised as a fly or something... and also, the hilt part would be sticking out...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2010 4:06:18 GMT
careful with your phrasing... it's not religion that has an agenda, but people with an agenda who use religion... Or, we can abide by the No Religion rules of the forum so that no one offends anyone...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2010 4:57:51 GMT
God, I hope so. It would be awesome to find Halle Berry laying on my bed when I got home. Odin, May you wishes come true!!!!!! @sanmark: wasn't Thor's hammer too short, I think Loki had something to do with that... disguised as a fly or something... and also, the hilt part would be sticking out...[/quote] Think of the pommel as the end of the handel and the hilt as the hammer head, one hand sword would have the look, two hander would be a normal hammer pree Loki, most of the Thor pendants have the norse hilt/pommel look to them...Highly ornate. I can think of many jenis to be in my bed when I sleep!!! ................SanMarc.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2010 6:14:58 GMT
I read while doing my research (though I can't remember where) that the pope encouraged people going on crusade to use cruciform swords so they looked like crosses. Also, according to Wikipedia this sword-as-cross thing was passed down over the years: When carrying a sword (which is still done on ceremonial occasions), European military forces and their cultural descendants use a two-step gesture. The sword is first raised, in the right hand, to the level of and close to the front of the neck. The blade is inclined forward and up 30 degrees from the vertical; the true edge is to the left. Then the sword is slashed downward to a position with the point close to the ground in front of the right foot. The blade is inclined down and forward with the true edge to the left. This gesture originated in the Crusades. The hilt of a sword formed a cross with the blade, so if an actual crucifix was not available, a Crusader could kiss the hilt of his sword when praying, before entering battle, for oaths and vows, and so on. The lowering of the point to the ground is a traditional act of submission. So if the connection between cruciform sword and cross works, then I don't think anyone would have an issue with a cross on a pommel being upside down while the sword is in use.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2010 6:28:52 GMT
I think the guy on the other end of the sword would have a BIG problem with that, especially if he were under armoured... ....SanMarc.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2010 7:01:42 GMT
I read while doing my research (though I can't remember where) that the pope encouraged people going on crusade to use cruciform swords so they looked like crosses. Also, according to Wikipedia this sword-as-cross thing was passed down over the years: When carrying a sword (which is still done on ceremonial occasions), European military forces and their cultural descendants use a two-step gesture. The sword is first raised, in the right hand, to the level of and close to the front of the neck. The blade is inclined forward and up 30 degrees from the vertical; the true edge is to the left. Then the sword is slashed downward to a position with the point close to the ground in front of the right foot. The blade is inclined down and forward with the true edge to the left. This gesture originated in the Crusades. The hilt of a sword formed a cross with the blade, so if an actual crucifix was not available, a Crusader could kiss the hilt of his sword when praying, before entering battle, for oaths and vows, and so on. The lowering of the point to the ground is a traditional act of submission. So if the connection between cruciform sword and cross works, then I don't think anyone would have an issue with a cross on a pommel being upside down while the sword is in use. Thank you. That was the point I wanted to drive home, but didn't have the forethought to say.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jan 3, 2010 9:14:41 GMT
it took me a little while to realize what the passage quoted by eruialsul was talking about. that two-step motion is the traditional salute as performed with a sword still used by the US military today (though we usually do it with a sabre). interesting origins.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2010 18:34:41 GMT
careful with your phrasing... it's not religion that has an agenda, but people with an agenda who use religion... Or, we can abide by the No Religion rules of the forum so that no one offends anyone... or that... anyway, I was actually looking at heraldic crosses earlier and many of them have all equal sides, so now I have a new theory. Knowing that every cross in heraldry has a different meaning (devotion, bravery, reverence to your ancestry, etc), you wouldn't exactly want to have it inverted to mean something else, so they made most of them in such a way that would look the same whether inverted or not... idk, just a theory... I also researched to see if there were any blades with a Latin cross on them, came out empty... anyone know any site with like a catalogue of original swords?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2010 0:20:15 GMT
bluejacket.com/sea-service_tradition.htmwww.navyandmarine.org/ondeck/1862swordmanual.htmwww.19thalabama.org/swordmanual.docwww.cpp.usmc.mil/schools/corporals/student/Cpl_0107_SH.PDFopenlibrary.org/b/OL8000721M Unfortunately, such wiki sword articles tend to be a mixture of truths and misconception. I'm sure every country and each military branch may vary the story a bit but the present arms salute has been with the hilt shoulder high and not recognizable as kissing the cross. There are the basic fencing salutes that somewhat mirror the military two-step. Tom Cruise does a credible sword salute, along with other's marching in the movie Taps. There you go, some good old Hollywood reference. For a pope and crusade edict, maybe choose a particular crusade to reference and not an I don't remember where. Remember that these were fairly large mobilizations and that the grunt carrying a spear may well have not even known who or what a pope was. I don't recall too many all encompassing meetings of the leaders of the different crusades (really, choose one please) and asking them to pray to their swords and present their swords as an icon of Christianity. I'm seeing a bit too much Hollywood and not enough substance in reference to offer more than going deeper than wikis (note the serious lack of references for those salute and sword pages). As well as breaking down the timelines of the different crusader campaigns. It could be said William was crusading as a Norman when crossing the channel. I don't recall any reference of those barrels of swords being sent with the troops along with any religious connotations. I'd love to see a note of the People's Crusade, Princes' Crusade, or the Crusade of 1101 referenced with any papal request regarding cruciform swords. Those, typically classed as the first crusade and later in the 11th century. Boston George. Start with galleries such as the Leeds museum and Wallace collection and others may show as far as blade decorations. Also take a look at the galleries over at myArmoury. There are a vast number of resources at myArmoury and perhaps a better venue to pursue a more in depth discussion I meant to look at Oakeshott's first title today, regarding the religious but I have been away from the desk most of the weekend. There are a lot of general decorations of swords, including talismatic stuff. Most often, I have seen maltese type medieval crosses and not the church crosses but I have seen some heading swords as late as the 18th century with lots of religious connotation. Modern fraternal swords of many societies use a lot of biblical and church reference in blade and scabbard decoration and are often more saint related than anything else aside from Christian soldiers. That may well be where the persistence of thought regarding swords being a somewhat holy implement . Keep in mind though that the basis of Freemasonry and the modern Knights Templar is the freedom of religious choice while still believing in a supreme being. Unfortunately, most of what is offered regarding fraternities and Free Masonry itself is in being misrepresented and as with a lot of 19th century foundation for histories, simply incorrect.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2010 2:58:29 GMT
I was refering mostly to the Crusader type swords. "Modern" swords used by societies like the Freemasons and others aren't really what I am looking at, because they are designed in modern times and they are not really historical...
after about an hour of looking at a few albums at myarmory, i found a few swords with crosses on their pommels, no Latin cross anywhere... i don't know at this point if it were just an esthetic choice... i wonder.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2010 5:21:56 GMT
I never said to take the Wikipedia article at face value, in fact I made sure to point out that it was from Wikipedia so that people would have an idea of its reliability. As for the "I don't know" reference, I'm sorry if I can't remember which of the several doezen articles, journals, and books I looked through when writing my research paper it came from, and I didn't keep the sources I didn't end up using, so I can't really go and look it up again.
I never meant to be saying "here, this is the answer!" so much as "here's the information that I have, I'll contribute it along with the disclaimers so people will know how reliable it is."
Again, the only point I was trying to make was that I don' think people would consider it bad if a cross on a pommel ended up upside-down while the sword was in someone's hand. Since we seem to not be able to find any examples of such, it's a bit of a moot point.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2010 6:27:54 GMT
eruialsul, I was simply offering more information myself and looking for further discussion/sources you might be able to provide. Wikis can be a good place to start but I would rarely offer them, or offhand historical notes without other sources to offer. There are times I feel maybe such discussion isn't worth following at all but when good information is available, some topics can be thought provoking when loose ends are offered as realities. If you can remember the pope and time line, I'd be more than interested in the basis of your remembrance. The Princes Crusade was what some might relate as the true First Crusade, as it was the knights themselves that reached Jerusalem, without the larger massed army. So, the reference of an edict from the pope might make a lot of sense but m understanding is that it was finance, more than anything, which prompted a visit with the pope before them sailing. This was a group gathered from several countries, so there is some basis to the Hollywood films but the story lines of true history are often a lot different than those scripts. Those scripts, often based on post renaissance histories instead of the medieval chroniclers one might find on pages such as this one www.fordham.edu/halsall/Sbook.htmlwww.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k.html#The First Crusade You (any) might also be interested in the Carolingian Dynasty, as it was the beginning of the Holy Roman Empire that lasted until the beginning of the 19th century. the Muslim side of the chroniclers is good reading as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2010 6:57:39 GMT
I don't know if this helps any but I just poured through roughly 500 pages of primary sources dealing the the first to third crusades and I found that every last mention of swords made by many different chroniclers (Albert of Aachen, Gesta Francorum, Raymond D'Aguilers, Fulcher of Chartres, Ernoul, William of Tyre, etc.) were either in description of violence of as a metaphor for destruction/power. Nothing at all about crosses.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2010 7:04:58 GMT
Sorry Mole, I shouldn't post when I'm cranky, it makes me a little over-defensive. It seems like we both meant pretty much the same thing but I just didn't notice.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2010 13:09:14 GMT
XIIIa.2 in the Records of the Medieval Sword by Oakeshott has a cross on the pommel which looks like it maybe is a latin cross but I can't be sure. It's not perfectly preserved.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2010 14:13:59 GMT
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