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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 22:10:51 GMT
So, does that mean that we shouldn't punish people who attempt to assassinate the president but are stopped by the secret service? They technically didn't kill anyone, you know. you make a good point and I agree. Chenessfan: As for shooting someone in the back, I hope you never become a law maker (no offense, I just don't think that's a good idea), because then someone could kill about 5 people, drop their gun, flee, and be allowed to. This guy was looting from people who had part of their house burned. A few years ago my house in Albania (I was here at that point) caught on fire. The damage was big enough, but small in retrospect, only damaging part of the kitchen, but through a miscommunication with the people we have there looking after the house, we thought there was a chunk of the wall missing (long story...). I was about 5000 miles away and furios about it, imagine what I would have been like if I were there, and if a looter came at that point, I would be aiming straight for the heart, you might say that's a bit extreme, but you talk to me after you have had the house you were born and grown on burnt and on top of it an a-hole trying to profit from it. Now, I do give to you that this was the neighbor, but maybe they were close/extended family and shared into the grief of the family. In addition to that, the guy aimed for his ass, otherwise, unless he was using a bow for the first time, he would not have hit the ass... so in that sense there was never intent to kill the person, just to give them a pain in the ass (quite literally) and to mark them for the police (let's face it, who would come to a hospital with an arrow in their ass), and though I agree, there are other, much better, means of identifying people (cameras work best... for me), and that I would not do the same unless again, I was the person who had suffered the damage by the fire, I still think it was a pretty creative punishment and, anyway, the person did not die and he was caught, so everyone's happy (I guess, except the people who had to pull an arrow out of the guy's ass, that would have been awkward...)
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Post by YlliwCir on Dec 17, 2009 22:21:53 GMT
Aw, hell, I probably wouldn't have shot the fellow myself as he was running away, but I won't begrudge the archer for doing so. His house burned down and now this butt hole (pun intended) is trying to steal whatever's left. He set these events in motion. Now that I think about it the thief ought to be charged with causing bodily injury in the commission of a felony.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 22:39:54 GMT
No, I'm not joking!! What I write is my personel opinion. Yes, the man is a danger for our society. Not because he shoot at a looter, but because he was able to release a deadly arrow at someone who didn't hreated him at all. He's a danger because he doesn't hesitate to grab a lethal weapon when there is no need. The fact that he shot a man running away, at man who was not a threat to a human being, simply a thread to material things shows me how trigger-happy he is. I am in no way defending the looter. What he did was wrong and even worse because he wanted to steal from a family which had already lost so much. BUT, all this doesn't give you the right to take the risk of killing a man running away. I focus on marality because it's important WHY he did that, not so much WHAT happened afterwards. If the thief dies or not, what we have here is a possibly lethal atrack at a harmless person and therefor against ANY law. Period. It's actually YOU who's beeing naive. You focus on the fact: well, he didn't die. So what? He was VERY close too. Anyways, that doesn't matter like I said, al that matters is that crazy, violent guy shooting a harmless man in the back. NO serious court in any civilizated country will let the guy get away with it. I hope he has to pay for his violent and sick action. But I fear it's not gonna happen. Screw american weapon/defense laws if they don't react (that's not going to make friends, I know, but even though I hate the strict weapon laws in Germany, they punish at least sick guys like this one and keep things like this from happening).
Jon, you're taking a very easy road on this one. I neither condone nor condemn... do you actually have an opinion worth fighting for? You're also talking about a thief here all the time. You do realize he didn't steal anything? He was on the way to, if I believe the archer, but he didn't. Still, you'd rather have him die? Something must have gone very wrong here, don't you think?
Luka, I completely agree here...
george, have you ever shot a bow? I have, many times and I tell you, shooting at a moving target that is actually running away from you is HARD, there's no way to hit what you want to unless you're un incredibly good shot. And if you are, then hell, shoot close to his head and the shock alone will tell the looter to stop what he's doing. In short, your argument is very poor. You'de be aiming straight for the heart? Even though I could unterstand your feelings by then, that would be downright murder. I think you don't know what you're talking about. You know what KILLING is? You really know that? Ending a human's life is a very heavy burden and should certainly not be taken lightly as you do.
To make it clear again: My main problem is the violent-prone mantal attitude of the archer and not really the fact that he shoot a looter. The fact that he did only proves my opinion about him. He's a dangerous, sick person with a retarded ideal about justice and the real criminal in here. He should recieve a much heavier punishment from the two. The fact that most of you defend him and agree with his behaviour is really shocking to me and I wonder what went wrong. Seriously, I always thought of you as very nice people... and now that. It's sad. Really. I don't think I can keep my opinion about SBG, I guess I need to change it a good bit. I'm unfair to everybody in here who didn't write anything or is strongly against this and I'm deeply sorry for that.
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Post by YlliwCir on Dec 17, 2009 22:44:40 GMT
I hear you, CF, but apparently in Alabama he does have that right. I wish Rammy were here, he loves this stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 22:51:35 GMT
george: you compare multiple murder with planned stealing. Pretty poor, don't you think? I hope you necver become a judge.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 22:53:49 GMT
Well, I think from that post I can tell that nothing will bring about a sane discussion or reasonable agreement between either of us. But I leave you with this, I don't think you fully understand several of the ideas and words that you throw around. And that reasoning such as yours is very destructive and counter productive to what you believe you are trying to show/achieve. Food for thought.
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Post by sparky on Dec 17, 2009 23:06:10 GMT
I think a big problem is that there is really no punishment for criminals. I mean they have rights, even if their rights take some of my rights away. Because that is what they do, they take my right to peace of mind. My right to security and feeling safe in my home. My right to take my kids to a park for a day of fun, a park that my tax dollars paid for. The right that the things I work hard for remain mine.
In todays world they can have the bad guy dead to rights and he'll either walk or get a slap on the wrist. Heck I heard today that California is going to let a lot of bad people out of jail because it's expensive to hold them. Not only that but if they steal my stuff and get caught, I'll probably end up paying for his lawyer and if he's convicted I'll definitely pay for their stay in jail (if they get time).
So I do have sympathy for the victims and not the bad guy. It was after all his choice to do what he did, this is a general to all criminals. It's kinda nice to see that one of them at least paid for his crime. I mean after all how many of us chose not to steal because we'd really rather stay out of jail or don't want to run the risk of getting shot at breaking into someones house. That and it's just wrong.
Let's face it criminals really don't have any fear today, for good reason.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 23:18:22 GMT
Well I am glad that the tide seems to be turning, at least in some of the states of the USA, that people are fed up with judges and lawmakers who want to coddle criminals and protect them as if they were wayward children, while treating their victims as if THEY were the criminals. The people are fed up with being told they cannot protect themselves or their property, and they are fed up with the kind of thinking that ChenessFan has been bringing to this thread ChenessFan, you are so worried about the thief, have you considered if there was a serious fear that honest citizens could bring deadly force to bear for even attempted theft, never mind assault, rape, or murder, that maybe there would be less risk to the dishonest, because they would be TOO SCARED to do anything that might get them shot up Maybe more of them would decide they should get a job, and earn their money instead of committing crimes to get it. Less people committing crimes = less risk to honest citizens, and less risk to the potential criminals since they would be scared straight
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 23:25:39 GMT
Hey all, I did not mean this to turn into a pro and con argument. I just meant to post about an interesting article about how a concerned neighbor and friend, using a bow of all things, saw to it that a thief was stopped and arrested. The thing about a thief, burgler, or looter, you never know what is in his mind. He might decide to kill a homeowner or what have you. I wish the piece of garbage had've been killed!! He would not ever rob or harm anyone else that is for sure. That is why criminals are so open and bold in our country now because of bleeding hearts that plead not to hurt them. They are criminals, scum and detrimental to our society and culture. They need to be eradicated! FB
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2009 0:10:28 GMT
Edited. Comment removed by author.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2009 2:11:01 GMT
No, I'm not joking!! What I write is my personel opinion. Yes, the man is a danger for our society. Not because he shoot at a looter, but because he was able to release a deadly arrow at someone who didn't hreated him at all. He's a danger because he doesn't hesitate to grab a lethal weapon when there is no need. The fact that he shot a man running away, at man who was not a threat to a human being, simply a thread to material things shows me how trigger-happy he is. I am in no way defending the looter. What he did was wrong and even worse because he wanted to steal from a family which had already lost so much. BUT, all this doesn't give you the right to take the risk of killing a man running away. I focus on marality because it's important WHY he did that, not so much WHAT happened afterwards. If the thief dies or not, what we have here is a possibly lethal atrack at a harmless person and therefor against ANY law. Period. It's actually YOU who's beeing naive. You focus on the fact: well, he didn't die. So what? He was VERY close too. Anyways, that doesn't matter like I said, al that matters is that crazy, violent guy shooting a harmless man in the back. NO serious court in any civilizated country will let the guy get away with it. I hope he has to pay for his violent and sick action. But I fear it's not gonna happen. Screw american weapon/defense laws if they don't react (that's not going to make friends, I know, but even though I hate the strict weapon laws in Germany, they punish at least sick guys like this one and keep things like this from happening). Jon, you're taking a very easy road on this one. I neither condone nor condemn... do you actually have an opinion worth fighting for? You're also talking about a thief here all the time. You do realize he didn't steal anything? He was on the way to, if I believe the archer, but he didn't. Still, you'd rather have him die? Something must have gone very wrong here, don't you think? Luka, I completely agree here... george, have you ever shot a bow? I have, many times and I tell you, shooting at a moving target that is actually running away from you is HARD, there's no way to hit what you want to unless you're un incredibly good shot. And if you are, then hell, shoot close to his head and the shock alone will tell the looter to stop what he's doing. In short, your argument is very poor. You'de be aiming straight for the heart? Even though I could unterstand your feelings by then, that would be downright murder. I think you don't know what you're talking about. You know what KILLING is? You really know that? Ending a human's life is a very heavy burden and should certainly not be taken lightly as you do. To make it clear again: My main problem is the violent-prone mantal attitude of the archer and not really the fact that he shoot a looter. The fact that he did only proves my opinion about him. He's a dangerous, sick person with a retarded ideal about justice and the real criminal in here. He should recieve a much heavier punishment from the two. The fact that most of you defend him and agree with his behaviour is really shocking to me and I wonder what went wrong. Seriously, I always thought of you as very nice people... and now that. It's sad. Really. I don't think I can keep my opinion about SBG, I guess I need to change it a good bit. I'm unfair to everybody in here who didn't write anything or is strongly against this and I'm deeply sorry for that. yes, I do NOT know how to shoot a bow, but I would guess the guy is pretty good at it. As for the killing point, I have personally never killed someone, but I have been pretty close to one killing. In 1997 civil war broke out in Albania, soon turning into absolute anarchy, our house was targeted. Do I think killing a person is bad, definitely, do I think killing a person who is probably going to kill you, rape your wife to death, and sell your child for organs is bad, definitely not, call me cruel for it, but hell, if I were holding that gun instead of my father, I would have done the same exact thing. I understand that you cannot understand why I would aim for the heart and simply put, I didn't expect you to, because well, I don't think you have ever had your house burnt down (even partly). You think of all the great times you have had in the place and how you can't have them anymore, all the memories, blasted away. In the midst of that, a mofo decides to profit from that and come to loot your house, man, one arrow would be the least I could put through him (not that I would use a bow and arrow, simply cause I don't have one)...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2009 3:58:08 GMT
Hello gang, I admit that given my work load between home & here i had missed this thread. You know how crazy it can get around the holidays! _____________________________________________________________________ This morning i was reading the Chicago Sun Times as i do every morning. I came across a story of a man who was recently sentenced to death on Wednesday in a DuPage County court. The mans name is Brian Dugan 53, who was convicted for the murder of 10 year old Jeanine Nicarico in Naperville back in 1983. (I was only 2 at the time). Unfamiliar with the story, i asked my mother "why has it taken them all these years to convict him?"She told me, that 3 men (Rolando Cruz, Alejandro Hernandez and Stephen Buckley) were suspected of the rape and murder of the 10 year old girl, and 2 of them (Rolando Cruz & Alejandro Hernandez) were convicted & sentenced to death. I thought to myself, "they aren't tough enough with these cases." "Why have these guys been on death row ALL these years?" "Why don't they just take em out back and execute them as soon as the sentence was passed?"I shared some of those thoughts with my mum. And much to my surprise she began reading the article, which stated that DNA analysis done in 2002 (technology which wasn't available back in 83') had cleared the 2 men who had already served TEN YEARS in prison. The DNA indicated that Brian Dugan (already serving a life sentence for 2 other murders that he was convicted of in the 80's) as Jeanine's real killer. The two men were exonerated and awarded a hefty sum by the state for their wrongful prosecution. Dugan, is now set to die on the anniversary of Jeanine's slaying - Feb, 25th. It will have been 27 years to the day that she was killed. WHY THE STORY JIM..........? WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE OP...........? ______________________________________________________________________ There is a reason we have a justice system, it may not always get the job done the way we want it to but its this system that makes society work. We have evolved from the days of lynch mobs & "frontier justice". Sure, it gives us good guys a nice feeling when we read about some perp getting what he had coming to him. But who is to say what he has coming to him...? Us...? Well, yeah - in a court room, in a jurors seat. But do we have the right to slaughter someone for doing anything remotely criminal? Some of these comments, actually disappointed that the perp wasn't killed... Really? When i heard about those 2 men who were convicted of raping and murdering a 10 year old girl, i thought: "in a perfect world they would have blown those guys away as soon as the caught them!"And what if that happened...? 2 innocent guys dead. In that case one could argue that the justice system failed by convicting the wrong people. But those people are STILL alive, and even though they have suffered tremendously for crimes they did not commit, i am sure they are happy that they weren't executed all those years ago. In the case of the OP everything ended fine. The crook got caught, he also got a little parting gift in his rump. A good day for the good guys! But.... It could have been a lot worse. He could have been seriously injured, or killed. If you think someone should be KILLED for stealing then let me ask you this: When i was a little boy (around 7 or 8) i used to steal laffy taffy from the local 7 eleven a couple at a time. Would it have been reasonable for the clerk to have come around the counter and blown my head (and 80's haircut ) all over the aisle? Its taking money from them right? Money that directly affects the store owners livelihood. Its a mere couple of dollars, but its stealing nonetheless. _____________________________________________________________________ Now, i already know how this will go, and i am sure the majority will disagree with me as usual. And that's fine... In closing i will leave you all with this thought. People don't mature without making mistakes, growing up and making mistakes is part of that. I think we can all agree on that. However sometimes people don't learn from their mistakes and go on to make more & more of them (like criminals). Some of you i am sure have children of your own, or perhaps a niece or nephew, or cousin or something. Now, re-read the OP only imagine that the crook is a loved one. And tell me now if you think the actions justify the risk... Killed for looting... And spare me the "my kid would never do that because i raise them right". Kids will be kids, and they make mistakes. Like petty theft. So long as things remain civil this thread can stay, but is going to require an effort from everybody.Now, Where's my keys to the staff pub? I need a flagon of ale after this. [Spelling]
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2009 5:15:26 GMT
An interesting topic, perhaps I can throw in my .02.
All to often when this type of discussion is aired, the focus seems to always be on the punishment, the flawed justice system with greedy lawyers and corrupt judges. Very seldom is the idea of prevention ever discussed. I attribute this to the conditioning of the people and boiling it all down to that universal motivator......MONEY. Just as with diseases, there is no money in the cure or in this case, prevention. Without crime there will be billions of dollars lost that feed some of the most lucrative aspects of our society. Money for police, jails, lawyers, judges, courts and even politicians ......all gone or at least drastically reduced. That simply won't do, so the true goal with crime and punishment is to keep the money flowing.
We all know the justice system is a joke. We have all seen people get away with murder and go happily on to play golf and write books about it. We often hear about people caught with marijuana getting a heavier sentence than someone who has abused a child. We all hear about "jail over-crowding" and states wanting to raise taxes to pay for more jails and cops. But how often do you hear about states begging money for after school programs to keep kids off the street. There is a huge lobby of people who are fighting to "put prayer in the classroom" but where is the lobby for better counselors and anti-bullying programs in the schools? Where are the laws and standards for parents who raise train wrecked children because they have no idea how to be good parents. Where is all the money for these type things.....non-existant. Why?? The answer is written on the wall folks, one just needs the nerve to read it.
Ok ok, I know what some may be thinking.....ok Marabunta, you can list all the flaws but how do you fix them? I think the solution is probably easier than one may think. Unfortunately it's not likely to happen for some very powerful reasons. Here in the US the citizens like to think they have some kind of power, but when it comes right down to it, they don't. If you really want change it is going to cost blood and lives.
You want change, it is time to completely restructure our society as a whole. Religion needs to go out the window when it comes to showing kindness to your fellow man. If you steal then you need to lose a finger....publicly..... If you steal again its your whole hand....publicly. If you kill you need to lose your life, painfully....publicly. Yes, blood will spill into the streets at first, but you know what, very quickly people are going to start re-assessing their decisions. Lawmakers found to be corrupt need to be stripped of title and possession, cast into servitude and made to live in the sewers. People who rape need to be publically castrated and then housed within institutions where they can be used as test subjects for science experiments. Parents who show they are unable to raise one child suitably need to be prevented from conceiving others.
Show me these changes and I will show you a crime rate that falls at an exponential rate. I will show you a society where parents focus more on the health and well being of their children, I will show you a society where law makers ACTUALLY do what is in the best interest of their constituents. Those who refuse to change will either be removed from society through death or at the very least lack the ability to commit a violent crime since to fire a gun or use a knife, hands and fingers usually needed.
But like I said before, I understand such things will never happen. People will continue to be malicious, those with power will continue to retain it and those without it will never have it. I know that many here don't want to hear it, such accusations are difficult to interpret but that doesn't make them wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2009 6:40:10 GMT
Thanks for posting what you said James +1 from me. I know a couple of bad eggs who used get into trouble (e.g. stealing) now and then but do they deserve death? Not in a well ordered society, no.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2009 7:52:02 GMT
Well, I think from that post I can tell that nothing will bring about a sane discussion or reasonable agreement between either of us. But I leave you with this, I don't think you fully understand several of the ideas and words that you throw around. And that reasoning such as yours is very destructive and counter productive to what you believe you are trying to show/achieve. Food for thought. Please post examples of where I don't understand something or reason destructively. I don't think I do. Also, what's the snip??
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2009 8:14:04 GMT
Sparky: that comes from a guy who's country still has capital punishment... YES, criminals have to fear (this is not a bad thing), in the US more than in many other countries, simply because practically everybody owns a gun and uses it very freely... why don't you think you have so many killed people, way more than every civilized country in Europe? Because of your retarded gun laws and weapon lobby. The upset guy just grabs the gun, goes out on the street and there ya go. Like in... where was the last one? Georgia? swordmonger: How often should I say it again? I am not mainly worried about the looter but about the violent-prone, trigger-happy guy that thinks like a medieval king. You do realize that what he's doing is vigilantism? Remember, this is not the middle ages... Freebooter: Now you're crossing a line! "Eradicated"? You do know that you sound exactly like Adolf Hitler?? This is a word that should NEVER be used in relation to a human being. Looks like you have still a lot to learn. Hitler was the worse thing to happen in the 20th century but he taught us Germans a valid lesson, a lesson many Americans (and Chinese, every country without such a horrible history) haven't learned yet. I have more to say, but I got to go now. I'll catch up later.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2009 13:49:25 GMT
So long as things remain civil this thread can stay, but its going to require an effort from everybody. ^ That applies to YOU as well, chenessfan. ^
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2009 14:01:21 GMT
Again, I say I will defend my home with whatever force necessary. Do I wish death on any individual? No. Not even the nurse responsible for my father's death. Do I wish a good shot in the rump and a handful of legal justice on people who break the rules? For the most part, yes. Sometimes that little extra kick in the pants is what's needed to turn them around. Historically, we are easier on criminals than some societies. Even European societies have had the pleasure of killing criminals for petty crimes. Down to the first written law we have record of, Hammurabi's Code, death for crime has been part of civilized life as a necessity. In these societies where the seat of power is shaky, a harder set of laws is necessary to make the seedier side sit up and pay attention to the rules. I can see both sides of the argument. A human life is not mine or anyone else's to take. If Maryland had had a capital punishment law at the time, my uncle would be dead for a crime he didn't commit. Instead, he's being released and given a hefty settlement for his time served. I don't like execution, as I feel that the rest of the perps life could be better served facing what he did (and that he will not do so again in this life). But I do feel that defense of one's home and property is both a right and a duty. Defending one's home is what the man of the house is supposed to do, that's what I was taught. That's the way I was raised. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2009 14:18:39 GMT
Hello all and Chenessfan, I originally meant to merely post about an interesting news piece involving a bow that I thought everyone might find interesting. I did not mean for my post to evolve into a pissing contest and I see now that is what it has become. We are beating a dead horse! We all have our opinions and not many will change his or her opinions.
But Chenessfan, we all have a lot to learn in this life and probably always will. And it seems that you too have a lot to learn too. That was my opinion and yes I study WWII and know all about Hitler. All I am saying is that free, law abiding citizens should never have to be victimized by a criminal who has no fear and is bold because he knows all about liberal attitudes that give him almost more rights than victims. And yes, I meant eradicated at least as far as heinus and career criminals go! And in some cases in my opinion more than just killers should get the death penalty. I think pedafiles, anyone that abuses a child, or the elderly (I mean really abuses as in rape, torture, etc.) should be executed, not released in a two or three years while some poor soul gets 20 yrs for a couple of joints.
And another thing, you made a comment about my country and culture calling our gun laws and lobby retarded, etc.. Our right to keep and bear arms is a Constitutional Right put down by the founding fathers of this country. It is such a large country the police can't be everywhere. Here, a man is expected to take care of his own, or used to be. And because at that time Americans or their families had all migrated from one country or another, countries who many had totalitarian regimes, tyranny, nobles and what have you that could just come and do what they wanted to the common man, etc.. That gun right is our last protection against tyranny here at home too. You mentioned Germany so perhaps if you Germans had had the right to keep and bear arms and had that freedom loving attitude like us you might have not let the thugs, Brown Shirts and all intimidate and take over your country. No one will do that here, at least not without a struggle from us, the people. Most real Americans, whose people have been here for generations, will not tolerate that and will fight and die for such ideals. If you take someone's right to defense of Self, State, and Property, then they are no longer free but puppets, sheep, and subjects, not free men! This country was founded on the principal of being governed with the consent of the governed!
And our Declaration of Independence, one of our most sacred documents, states that the people have the right and the duty that if the government has gotten too tyrannical, trying to run over the people, own and subjugate them, etc.. that we have the right and duty to either break away peacefully and start our own, or if needs be, the right to overthrow by force that tyranny! That is why we were given the right to keep and bear arms, to keep those sacred God given rights forever!
Well, I have rambled on long enough. It is raining here, chilly, I am just getting over the Swine Flu, and I broke my toe Tuesday night! Have a good day sir! Freebooter Sovereign State of Alabama
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2009 14:59:12 GMT
One more quick thing. To me it is logical thinking that if you don't do your duty as a citizen to stop a criminal, burgler or looter, whether your property or not, what is to keep him from going to his next victim, and maybe doing more than loot, like rape and murder? FB
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