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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 0:39:34 GMT
Im looking for some truly objective responses here. I will tell you what ''I'' own and what my very unexperienced thoughts are on this matter and hopefully I will recieve some unbiased opinions on whether or not I am correct.
I own a Cheness 9260 TH O-Kat. I will preface this by saying that I have NOWHERE near the experience that most of you do with swords. Now with that being said, with my VERY limited experience, it seems to me that from what I have put this blade through, I cant imagine that the ''preferred'' DH blade is truly that much {if any} better. From what I have read it seems that Cheness swords get a terrible rap for some reason. Cheap fittings, cracked tsuba or just a general distain for them. Im not trying to turn this into a ''Cheness good or bad'' question..........Im just relaying what information I have gathered.
It would appear from everything I have read that a DH blade is more aesthetically pleasing by having a natural hamon {which I agree with} but it is supposed to have the ability to have a keener edge and retain a keener adge as well...........the downside being the structural integrity is compromised, where as a TH blade is more durable but cannot be made quite as sharp and cannot maintain the keen edge of the blade as well as the DH blade.
Heres where Im must be missing something. I have made probably thousands of cuts through water filled bottles of varying thicknesses, large industrial sized thick plastic 5 gallon jugs and other various targets and this blade will not seem to lose its edge. I posted awhile back on the blade cutting extremely well even after it seemed to dull a little from the factory edge, but I have only sharpened it one time, very lightly with 600 grit sand paper and it still cuts through paper like a razor, even after the thousands of cut that I have mentioned. In fact, just tonight, I made a low cut on a bottle and the blade buried itself an inch into my cutting stand {I was waiting for this to happen!} and it lost no edge what so ever.
Now I know very little of the forging process and maybe I somehow just ended up with a super great blade but I just cant imagine that a DH blade could be any better in regards to sharpness and overall edge retention than what Im seeing here............and as far as the durability goes............forget about it.
Am I missing something? I dont have any experience with a DH blade.........in fact I would love to have one, for the hamon if nothing else, but jeez.........if every TH blade is anything like what I have..........why would you want something else? Ive heard of so many people who hit a water bottle just a little off and it bends their DH blade and it seems to me {and again, with my limited experience} that as indestructible as this TH 9260 blade is and as well as it has kept a razors edge........Why in the world would you want something else?
Again guys and gals........Im not promoting anything here, I just cant see, outside of the aesthetic appeal, how it can get any better.........unless, like I said, maybe I just got a great blade.
Any bad experiences with a TH blade are more than welcome...........just looking for input.
Thanks folks!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 2:20:51 GMT
I think it boils down to the fact that we EXPECT a hamon on a katana. That is how it is supposed to be. There is also the fact that most of us do not have the training that the warrior classes had and lack their accuracy of cut execution. If we did we would not need the durability of the TH blades to survive our ineptitude.
But I get what you are saying. Here is how I've come to think about it. (And I'll be going out on a limb here, I hope no one cuts it off behind me) European style blades are TH and they have accomplished their designed task for a long time that way. How would a TH katana be any different? Wouldn't a TH katana blade of X quality be roughly the equivalent of a TH euro blade of similar quality? IF that is true, then DH isn't necessary.
But it is what we expect in a katana. And a kat without a true hamon does seem to be lacking something.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 14, 2009 3:30:06 GMT
Being a production blade, your Cheness O-kat can and very well may be quite different from the next one or the most common one, I can't really talk about your blade because I have obviously not seen it. for comparison though you might want to go to youtube and check out my channel = ianflaer and look for the video "the sharpest katana" my budy Hiroshi starts out trying to cut a tripple roll of mugen dachi tatami with his Hanwei Bushido and then moves on to using my Cheness Kaze. his reaction at the difference it quite entertaining. also if you look through my videos there are several of that Kaze demonstrting just how silly sharp it is. perhaps Slayer of Darkness will jump in on this thread and mention how sharp that sword is right now as he currently owns it.
I would also like to point out that a sword doesn't really have to be all that sharp to cut well but when it is sharp (and when I say sharp I mean really sharp) it becomes stunningly amazing what it can do. take a look in the European swords forum for a thread called something like "can a windlass cut anything soft" it's a recent post and in the discussion some videos are linked showing a guy with a training blunt longsword cutting tatami.
sharpness, DH vs. TH: just because a sword is DH does not automatically mean it will hold a better edge or be able to be sharpened to a sharper edge. USUALLY it does but not always. the harder the steel is the sharper the edge can be made and the longer it usually lasts. this also makes the sword more brittle and can result in chipping, cracking and other nastiness so don't think that harder is absolutely better. there's a limit to the benefits of any single aspect of any sword, too much of a good thing is indeed a bad thing. I have sharpened and used many of Cheness' 9260 swords but never an O-kat. I have found every single Cheness TH 9260 to be softer than I would prefer. also 9260, while great in absorbing shock does tend to have a lower resistance to wear than plain 1060, it one of the trade-offs for that resistance to metal fatigue. personally, I have noticed that the Kaze takes a better edge than a Tenchi or Oniyuri or SGC and holds that edge for a LOT longer. 9260 I think, should be hardened just a little more than most other steels would want. I think this is appropriate due to its greater shock absorbtion and fatigue resistance and would mitigate the low abrasion resistance nicely. I have worked on 9260 Fable Blades and I can tell you the difference between them and Cheness in heat treat is quite noticeable; in case you hadn't guessed Fable Blades are far the superior. this is not to say Cheness is bad. no, they make good tough blades, I won't get into their fitting though.
Toughness DH vs TH: spring steel is tough stuff, it is made to be that way, but any appropriate blade steel properly heat treated and well shaped (you'd be surprised how much shape or geometry lends to durability) will be quite tough. I have cut all the way through a 4x4 with my Cheness Kaze and it has been through a lot of hard use by myself and Slayerofdarkness both and as far as I know is still going strong. on the other hand I have seen TH 9260 swords take a set on cuts that didn't seem that bad while the Kaze stayed fine. I have also seen TH swords do some amazing things. in the end I think that so long as you aren't abusing the unholy snot out of your sword the TH vs DH durability issue is really not an issue. DH swords are plenty durable when made well and TH swords are plenty weak when made poorly. craftsmanship is the issue here more than steel type or DH/TH. I have had a katana with a DH blade that bent easily and was pretty flimsy by my thoughts but it was more of a function of blade design than heat treat. I have had TH swords that were easy to bend and mess up and again geomtry played a bigger part. I am NOT sold on DH = fragile and TH = tough, not at all.
any way you slice it (deal with the pun) harder steel tends to sharpen better and retain the edge longer while softer steel tends to be tougher. this fact is the reason behind the Japanese (and certain other cultures) differentialy hardening their swords: they wanted the toughness of the softer steel and the edge of the harder steel.
as for kats vs European swords that's a whole different kettle of fish. kats and euro swords are very different in geometry and design. Euros of later period were designed to be made with homogenous steel and TH while some early area viking swords WERE differently hardened (they used different methods to achieve the differnt hardness levels than the Japanese but the result was comparable) or differently/selectively tempered. steel quality plays a big part in that decision and Europe had better steel. today DH is certainly not REQUIRED to make a good useable katana but there is nothing wrong with DH and as already mentioned a katana without a hamon is just weird.
personally I prefer DH katana. the only real difference I notice is that the harder steel of a well done DH katana DOES absolutely stay sharp longer and does with no doubt take a better edge in the first place. being DH isn't what makes it that way, it is the higher hardness found at the edge. I have seen Euro swords (the VA Castile comes to mind) that are VERY hard and hold an edge rediculously well. in fact no sword I have ever seen has held an edge better than the Castile too bad it comes with such a bad edge to begin with.
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Post by randomnobody on Dec 14, 2009 4:19:26 GMT
Tom's made many excellent points, but another thing to keep in mind is not so much the "hardness" as the actual geometry of the edge. Traditionally speaking, swords were differentially hardened to achieve the balance between "hard enough to hold a good edge" and "soft enough to not break" but today we have actually developed metals that can hover at just the right spot for both, throughout the blade. I don't like TH katana because it's just not a katana. It's a curved, single-edge, two-handed sword with Japanese-styleld furniture. Katana are DH by their nature, in my view the DEFINING characteristic of katana is the hamon. It's not a katana without one. Western/European swords, well, either or, depending on the time period and region the blade is intending to represent. Again, modern metals make either method just as good, but it comes down to whether the smith/forge knows what the devil they're doing. The best steel from the worst smith makes a bad sword; the worst steel from the best smith makes a good sword. That said, for katana, DH is desirable because it's, well, proper...appropriate...correct. TH works for anything else becase...well, it's...proper...appropriate...mostly correct. Cheness is a poor example of either but they do have their processes down to their own er...well, they're way. Other manufacturers do just as well or better at either or both. Oh, and a bajillion super-cool points for starting yet another thread on a tired, old topic, discussed many, many times already not just here, but all over the sword world(wide web and otherwise). Go you. (the last paragraph was in humor, mostly)
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Dec 14, 2009 6:57:35 GMT
Tom, that was one of the most informative posts that I've ever seen on SBG. Brilliant, man; kudos and a karma point to you! ;D As for the Kaze... it's CRAZY SHARP! Go to youtube and look up 'Tom Sharp Kaze'. There should be a video that's approx. 7 minutes long by a certain 'SlayerofDarkness100'. My form is TERRIBLE in that video, and yet the kaze still makes beautiful, effortless cuts due to its fantastically sharp 'Tom-Sharp' edge. ;D I highly doubt that any of my TH kats have the physical capability to become that sharp, although I don't have any high-end TH katana, so they may be able to. I'll second the fact that after many, MANY cuts on everything from cardboard to 4.5" thick limbs, my TH Cheness 30" Nagasa has retained its edge wonderfully. It also happens to be my 2nd-best cutter, as far as katana go, while the Cheness DH Kaze is far and away my best (out of a RoninKatana Wheel Katana, a Musashi Bamboo, a Musashi Tatsu Maki, and the two Cheness'). However, I'd also say that the kaze is every bit as durable as my TH RoninKatana, though not quite as tough as the TH Cheness. While the Kaze may be DH, that doesn't mean that it's not surprisingly damage-retardant. I've flubbed many cuts with that sword, and it only took a set once on a particularly bad mistake, where I'm sure any of my TH swords would have suffered the same. Even then, the set was simple to fix. My opinion on why DH katana could be preferable, other than what's been stated above, is that while a DH sword is, admittedly, easier to bend than its TH counterpart, the DH sword is much harder to break. Out on a battlefield, it was easy to straighten a bent blade, but if it broke... you now have one dead Samurai, lol. ;D Hope this helps, Slayer EDIT- Spelling and grammar
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 10:45:13 GMT
Thank you so much for the replys guys! As always your input is well thought out and extemely informative! Except for yours randomnobody! (That last sentence was in humor, mostly).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 11:16:00 GMT
You can pretty much skip randoms posts regarding Cheness swords, he's never held one but still thinks he can judge them better than any guy who owns one. He's right on the other stuff though. Anyways, I really like Cheness 9260 TH line (just look at my name ) for all the things you've said already. They're tough and they hold an edge well enough for a sword. Since I'm a medieval sword guy I always prefer TH blades, BUT I can certainly admire the beauty of a nice hamon. After all, it comes down to what you like better. Me personally, I just feel better with a western TH blade in hand but that just MY feeling. Many guys prefer kats for good reasons. I think both kats and western blades do what they were intended to do, and they do it well. So stick with the TH if you like or get some DH blades, you only need to change your style and your understanding about what you can do with a blade.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 14:49:17 GMT
While most of my swords are TH, My wife has a Musahi bamboo, that is DH. They are all good swords. I too agree with Tom...SMITH SMITH SMITH. That is what it is all about. I have heard of katana warping when set in a flubbed cut, but I have also seen a video (i think titled "my dad cutting with my sword") where a man flubbed a cut with a euro that hit the cutting stand and warped rather tragically.
I have been very fortunate... good training+good luck= no goofed up swords. although I did warp a cheap stainless replica once, but that, by nature was to be expected, and stupid of me to use in the first place, when i was a newb.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 15:17:29 GMT
You can pretty much skip randoms posts regarding Cheness swords, he's never held one but still thinks he can judge them better than any guy who owns one. He's right on the other stuff though. I cracked up at this; you guys are hilarious!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 15:56:15 GMT
There are plenty of things to dislike about Cheness that don't require handling one...
TH definatley has merits and as a general rule beginners tend to prefer them for the fact that they're more forgiving (when it comes to Japanese blades anyways)
I myself prefer DH because I haven't ever really needed that forgiveness... Granted I haven't cut as much as others but I've definately done some cuts that by stereotype should've damaged my DH sword but didn't leave a mark on it.
Plus like Random I agree that a katana is not a katana without a hamon its one of the defining characteristics.
I also think one thing to keep in mind (this is mainly to the original poster) the one (at least to me) redeeming quality of Cheness is that they tend to have a decent amount of niku... where a lot of the stories (not all by any means just a decent percentage) we heard about bending and chipping DH swords came from swords in the Elite, and XL lines of hanwei... and a lot of hanwei swords have little to no niku resulting in a very sharp but more fragile edge due to a lack of metal reinforcing it.
I also think a DH sword makes you focus mroe on your technique and alignment than a TH katana because you can get away with chopping more with a TH because it'll forgive you when you twist it in the cut or something like that. As many youtube videos will attest to.
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Post by YlliwCir on Dec 14, 2009 21:26:25 GMT
You can pretty much skip randoms posts regarding Cheness swords, he's never held one but still thinks he can judge them better than any guy who owns one. He's right on the other stuff though. I cracked up at this; you guys are hilarious! He has a point, I thought KC's Teutonic was one buttugly sword till I got one, it's one of my fav's now. I prefer TH myself. The only sword I ever bent was a DH blade. DH didn't make it a katana tho, it was a KC Celtic. It's gotta be able to cut a tank in half to be a katana. Hell, it all comes down to what a person likes. There's plenty swords I see that I don't care for, I don't usually feel the need to dis em. The katana cracks don't count as I am joking.
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Post by randomnobody on Dec 14, 2009 21:42:11 GMT
Not that I should have to but for the sake of my own defense let me just say that Cheness isn't just ugly...they're just wrong. That much I CAN judge without buying one.
The Teutonic is a nice looking sword in my opinion, I wanted one myself once.
Anyway, enough about whether I'm allowed to not like everybody else's favorite, more about the actual differences between the methods.
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Post by YlliwCir on Dec 14, 2009 21:56:08 GMT
Yes, back on track. It appears to me a lot depends on whether a person prefers historical authenticity in manufacture. Put me down for no. I like gladii but would rather have one made with modern methods and material because to my understanding it makes for a stronger sword. I understand that's not everyones objective. To each their own.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 14, 2009 22:17:23 GMT
I hear where you are coming from Ric and I certainly agree that I like having the benefit of today's modern marvels in my swords. my preference for hamon has nothing to do with making a sword historically accurate because in order to do that you would need it to be made of tamahagane and with processes that means your new sword is going to cost several thousand dollars and while my taste in swords has matured I still cannot justify buying a sword that costs more than my most recently purchased car.
I like hamon because they are cool and because I want the higher hardness at the edge. but if just having a hamon were to make the sword cost several hundred dollard more I wouldn't care at all.
I really think the DH - TH debate is pretty silly these days because I think if you get a well made katana the difference in durability is so small as to be irrelevant. get what you like is the rule I follow here. I like hamon, they are one of the few semi-cosmetic features I really like.
but for all those people who swear that DH automatically means less durable (or even fragile): I have a 4x4 that would like a word with you . . .
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2009 2:26:45 GMT
i prefer DH for a couple reasons..... 1. its a heat treatment that you can see.(for me at least) 2. its pretty, if i was gonna buy any sword japanese/western...any sword. id want a hamon. but for most production swords DH doesn't really matter.IMO. most ALL blades are hardened then TEMPERED. this means a DH blades edge may be harder than the back but its temperd to a certain Rockwell. a DH blade and a TH blade may in reality have the same Rockwell rating on the edge. i would also like to add that i don't feel that the modern"hamon" has been used as well as it can be. super small and shallow hamons should be a thing of the past(modern production) big fatty hamons are IMO the future. from what i understand(not much) about nihonto is that they did not temper there blades. sorry for spelling will edit later wow, some massive posts in this thread...i cant compete
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